The range is almost impossible for normal congregations. And GBH has to be committed upon the tune of the verses to shoehorn the words.
Apart from that it's perfect.
The range is almost impossible for normal congregations. And GBH has to be committed upon the tune of the verses to shoehorn the words.
Apart from that it's perfect.
It makes a change for me from metrical psalms where GBH has been committed on Jacobean English to make them fit the meter.
The psalms about a joke I have
That meter sung in are
Grammar as humour twisted is
And hard'st to sing by far
The reason we had I to the hills will lift mine eyes at David's funeral was that he loved the absurd syntax of metrical psalms. (That and because he'd mentioned several times over the years that he wanted it).
Here, I’d say REGENT SQUARE is firmly linked to “Angels from the Realms of Glory.”
In Britain "Angels" is invariably sung to "Iris". "Regent Square" seems to be used for several hymns, especially "Fill your hearts with joy and gladness".
Here, I’d say REGENT SQUARE is firmly linked to “Angels from the Realms of Glory.”
In Britain "Angels" is invariably sung to "Iris". "Regent Square" seems to be used for several hymns, especially "Fill your hearts with joy and gladness".
We have RHUDDLAN for the latter (per CH4). REGENT SQUARE I would associate with Look, ye saints, the sight is glorious and Glory be to God the Father.
Yes, certainly. However Rhuddlan often goes with "Judge eternal, throned in splendour" (among other things) while "Look, ye saints" to me goes with "Triumph".
The "right" tunes so much depend on one's background. In my last church vigorous debates were had between me (Baptist but brought up CofE), the organist (English Congregationalist) and my wife (Scottish mongrel but mostly United Free Church)!
@Gee D you've said before that you're a tenor - if you're finding the pitch of hymns too high I honestly think you're trying to sing at the womens' pitch, given that choir Basses are expected to sing the tune during unison verses! Highest note I've ever seen in a hymn is a top line F, which men would be expected to sing as the F above middle C - tenors usually have a good third or so above this available.
It's quite likely that that's my trouble. Looking more closely at it, and at your response, you seem to be looking at it from the perspective of a trained chorister, able to put into action the sort of analysis you set out in the course of singing. Most of us in the congregation aren't able to do that. We've never been trained to do it, and it's probably now too late.
@Gee D you've said before that you're a tenor - if you're finding the pitch of hymns too high I honestly think you're trying to sing at the womens' pitch, given that choir Basses are expected to sing the tune during unison verses! Highest note I've ever seen in a hymn is a top line F, which men would be expected to sing as the F above middle C - tenors usually have a good third or so above this available.
It's quite likely that that's my trouble. Looking more closely at it, and at your response, you seem to be looking at it from the perspective of a trained chorister, able to put into action the sort of analysis you set out in the course of singing. Most of us in the congregation aren't able to do that. We've never been trained to do it, and it's probably now too late.
To be fair, the vast majority of people's voices naturally fall into the expected men's and women's pitches - they don't have to do it consciously. Usually complaints from people about hymns being too high are from people with low voices for their sex - altos and basses - not tenors (or sopranos) who have relatively high voices for their sex. The only way the regular pitch range (male) for a hymn - about C below Middle C to D above - should seem high to a tenor (range Bb below C below Middle C to A above) is if they're actually singing the women's pitch. I've never heard of this happening, but it's the only thing I can think of.
What might be happening, if you're a very high tenor, is that the expected men's pitch is just a little low - if a hymn starts on say a middle C (written pitch), then most men will naturally sing the C an octave below, and most women naturally sing the written middle C. If your voice is jumping to the written (women's) pitch then yes, most of the hymn is going to seem horribly high because that C is probably the lowest note in the entire tune!
Do you have a musician friend who can play a hymn tune and hear what it is you're doing? For congregational singing you might just need to train yourself a little to find the right octave, which if you are a tenor may well feel rather low. That's the compromise to cater for all the men (the majority) who are basses or baritones.
You do seem to be in a very unusual situation though - most men who would be tenors but haven't trained their voices sing lower than they otherwise would - it's generally upper registers that need training to unlock.
Realised how complicated that looks - the TL;DR version is that the range used for hymns (assuming men sing an octave down as most naturally do) is in the bottom part of the tenor range, so hymns should feel a bit low for tenors.
@Gee D you've said before that you're a tenor - if you're finding the pitch of hymns too high I honestly think you're trying to sing at the womens' pitch, given that choir Basses are expected to sing the tune during unison verses! Highest note I've ever seen in a hymn is a top line F, which men would be expected to sing as the F above middle C - tenors usually have a good third or so above this available.
It's quite likely that that's my trouble. Looking more closely at it, and at your response, you seem to be looking at it from the perspective of a trained chorister, able to put into action the sort of analysis you set out in the course of singing. Most of us in the congregation aren't able to do that. We've never been trained to do it, and it's probably now too late.
FWIW, I don’t think it’s a trained choristers’ perspective. In all my decades of singing in church and in other public contexts, I don’t think I’ve ever encountered a man trying to match the pitches the women are singing, rather than singing an octave lower. It’s something that happens naturally, without anyone ever having been explicitly told to do it or how to do it.
I certainly find that, when I sing a hymn or song that's pitched poorly, I jump up and down the octave as seems appropriate.
BTW I don't think high or low notes or always the problem in themselves, but the way in which the tune takes you to them. There's also the question of lengthy high or low sections in a tune.
@Gee D you've said before that you're a tenor - if you're finding the pitch of hymns too high I honestly think you're trying to sing at the womens' pitch, given that choir Basses are expected to sing the tune during unison verses! Highest note I've ever seen in a hymn is a top line F, which men would be expected to sing as the F above middle C - tenors usually have a good third or so above this available.
It's quite likely that that's my trouble. Looking more closely at it, and at your response, you seem to be looking at it from the perspective of a trained chorister, able to put into action the sort of analysis you set out in the course of singing. Most of us in the congregation aren't able to do that. We've never been trained to do it, and it's probably now too late.
FWIW, I don’t think it’s a trained choristers’ perspective. In all my decades of singing in church and in other public contexts, I don’t think I’ve ever encountered a man trying to match the pitches the women are singing, rather than singing an octave lower. It’s something that happens naturally, without anyone ever having been explicitly told to do it or how to do it.
I've never come across it either, but it's the only way I can perceive of a tenor finding the range of hymns impossibly high. If you were in the choir singing the tenor line you'd be singing a bit higher than that on average.
Are there national variations, I wonder.
Whenever I have been to church in France everything seems to be pitched at least a tone higher than I am used to. Oh, and French composers of church music seems to always just avoid a memorable tune. It's a gift they have.
Are there national variations, I wonder.
Whenever I have been to church in France everything seems to be pitched at least a tone higher than I am used to. Oh, and French composers of church music seems to always just avoid a memorable tune. It's a gift they have.
There can be some. If you have a culture of people singing in four part harmony in the congregation, you can pitch hymns a bit higher. Conversely, if you have a culture of the congregation not really singing and leaving it to the choir, again, you can raise the pitch a tone or so.
Voices have also dropped a bit over the last century so older hymn books may have higher settings.
Incidentally, it's generally better to go too low than too high - the sopranos and tenors in the choir will hate you on the unison verses, but it's not about them. IAtBoL as mentioned above is better taken down a tone into Ab instead of the normal Bb. That brings the high note (F in the original - a pitch lots of people can't get to) to an Eb (still a stretch but far more people can get there) at the cost of some low Abs which are well below official tenor/soprano range* but in reality the vast majority of singers can get them, and if you can't a groan is better than a screech.
(officially - but more modern composers like Lloyd Webber do write notes this low for these voices - microphones you see.)
FWIW, I don’t think it’s a trained choristers’ perspective. In all my decades of singing in church and in other public contexts, I don’t think I’ve ever encountered a man trying to match the pitches the women are singing, rather than singing an octave lower. It’s something that happens naturally, without anyone ever having been explicitly told to do it or how to do it.
Thank you both for your comments. I'm not conscious of trying to match the pitches the women are singing, but I'll make a conscious effort this Sunday to make sure that I'm not. I
A killer to sing; usually pitched too high and there is that dreaded octave leap ( with scoop) on the ultimate” and I will raise him up on the last day”….
I grew up in a church with a fairly strong singing tradition and eventually had to learn the alto parts in self-defense. Rather than feeling like I was shrieking. It helped. I got fewer headaches and shoulder tension from singing.
It always helped to stand in front of one or the other of a few very fine altos, too. Support in the efforts, you know?
As a soprano who has lost her lower notes, I love it when the overall pitch is high. Anything below middle C is non- existent from me. Fortunately we have some great altos in our choir.
As a soprano who has lost her lower notes, I love it when the overall pitch is high. Anything below middle C is non- existent from me. Fortunately we have some great altos in our choir.
I hear you. I have a good fifth available below the C below middle C but there's no volume or projection available down there. But hymns are and should be primarily about the congregation.
But hymns are and should be primarily about the congregation.
Yes!
For the first time in many, many years we are at a church that focuses on congregational singing -- and wow! does this congregation sing!
There is also no "special music" a thing I'd always been in church with and that sat less well with me the older I got.
But hymns are and should be primarily about the congregation.
Yes!
For the first time in many, many years we are at a church that focuses on congregational singing -- and wow! does this congregation sing!
There is also no "special music" a thing I'd always been in church with and that sat less well with me the older I got.
But hymns are and should be primarily about the congregation.
Yes!
For the first time in many, many years we are at a church that focuses on congregational singing -- and wow! does this congregation sing!
There is also no "special music" a thing I'd always been in church with and that sat less well with me the older I got.
How are you defining "special music" here?
In my experience in the Southern US, it’s a term used in some churches to refer to anthems or other music sung by the choir, or perhaps by soloists or a small ensemble.
But hymns are and should be primarily about the congregation.
Yes!
For the first time in many, many years we are at a church that focuses on congregational singing -- and wow! does this congregation sing!
There is also no "special music" a thing I'd always been in church with and that sat less well with me the older I got.
How are you defining "special music" here?
In my experience in the Southern US, it’s a term used in some churches to refer to anthems or other music sung by the choir, or perhaps by soloists or a small ensemble.
Special music s a semi technical term in churches in the US that have been influenced by Charles Finney's "new measures." Common in Baptist churches as I know them. It is usually a solo musician or small group thay performs sacred music , but does not include the congregation. It is different from, say, the choir singing or an organist playing, but I can't gove you any specific details.
Thank you for this comment @Alan29 . Could we spell out in full the titles of hymns and choruses and tunes, please? To some people the acronyms are obvious, to others of us it involves guesswork or scrolling back, which can make reading the thread harder work than it needs to be.
The stand out hymn this morning was Bernadette Farrell's gorgeous O Lord you Search Me and You Know Me. It always moves me deeply.
Folks will be pleased to hear that she is making a steady and real recovery from her recent serious illness.
Our offerings today (with rather less porcine input than usual, as I was serving):
Immoral Immortal, invisible - St Denio New every morning is the love - Melcombe Name of all majesty - Name of All Majesty Rock of ages - Petra Holy, holy, holy, Lord God almighty - Nicaea
First Sunday for our new minister. We had:
To God be the glory
God is our refuge and our strength
Do not be afraid
In heavenly love abiding
Lord, you have come to the seashore
Comments
IMHO it works best with a soloist doing the verses.
Unfortunately the high note that causes the most pain is in the chorus.
Alas, yes...
Shame, because I quite like it, too, even though I can't quite get up to the high note without acute discomfort to myself and those around me...
Apart from that it's perfect.
It makes a change for me from metrical psalms where GBH has been committed on Jacobean English to make them fit the meter.
The psalms about a joke I have
That meter sung in are
Grammar as humour twisted is
And hard'st to sing by far
The reason we had I to the hills will lift mine eyes at David's funeral was that he loved the absurd syntax of metrical psalms. (That and because he'd mentioned several times over the years that he wanted it).
And “I to the Hills Will Lift My Eyes” is on my funeral list, too.
@Arethosemyfeet, :not worthy:
We have RHUDDLAN for the latter (per CH4). REGENT SQUARE I would associate with Look, ye saints, the sight is glorious and Glory be to God the Father.
The "right" tunes so much depend on one's background. In my last church vigorous debates were had between me (Baptist but brought up CofE), the organist (English Congregationalist) and my wife (Scottish mongrel but mostly United Free Church)!
It's quite likely that that's my trouble. Looking more closely at it, and at your response, you seem to be looking at it from the perspective of a trained chorister, able to put into action the sort of analysis you set out in the course of singing. Most of us in the congregation aren't able to do that. We've never been trained to do it, and it's probably now too late.
To be fair, the vast majority of people's voices naturally fall into the expected men's and women's pitches - they don't have to do it consciously. Usually complaints from people about hymns being too high are from people with low voices for their sex - altos and basses - not tenors (or sopranos) who have relatively high voices for their sex. The only way the regular pitch range (male) for a hymn - about C below Middle C to D above - should seem high to a tenor (range Bb below C below Middle C to A above) is if they're actually singing the women's pitch. I've never heard of this happening, but it's the only thing I can think of.
What might be happening, if you're a very high tenor, is that the expected men's pitch is just a little low - if a hymn starts on say a middle C (written pitch), then most men will naturally sing the C an octave below, and most women naturally sing the written middle C. If your voice is jumping to the written (women's) pitch then yes, most of the hymn is going to seem horribly high because that C is probably the lowest note in the entire tune!
Do you have a musician friend who can play a hymn tune and hear what it is you're doing? For congregational singing you might just need to train yourself a little to find the right octave, which if you are a tenor may well feel rather low. That's the compromise to cater for all the men (the majority) who are basses or baritones.
You do seem to be in a very unusual situation though - most men who would be tenors but haven't trained their voices sing lower than they otherwise would - it's generally upper registers that need training to unlock.
BTW I don't think high or low notes or always the problem in themselves, but the way in which the tune takes you to them. There's also the question of lengthy high or low sections in a tune.
I've never come across it either, but it's the only way I can perceive of a tenor finding the range of hymns impossibly high. If you were in the choir singing the tenor line you'd be singing a bit higher than that on average.
Whenever I have been to church in France everything seems to be pitched at least a tone higher than I am used to. Oh, and French composers of church music seems to always just avoid a memorable tune. It's a gift they have.
There can be some. If you have a culture of people singing in four part harmony in the congregation, you can pitch hymns a bit higher. Conversely, if you have a culture of the congregation not really singing and leaving it to the choir, again, you can raise the pitch a tone or so.
Voices have also dropped a bit over the last century so older hymn books may have higher settings.
Incidentally, it's generally better to go too low than too high - the sopranos and tenors in the choir will hate you on the unison verses, but it's not about them. IAtBoL as mentioned above is better taken down a tone into Ab instead of the normal Bb. That brings the high note (F in the original - a pitch lots of people can't get to) to an Eb (still a stretch but far more people can get there) at the cost of some low Abs which are well below official tenor/soprano range* but in reality the vast majority of singers can get them, and if you can't a groan is better than a screech.
(officially - but more modern composers like Lloyd Webber do write notes this low for these voices - microphones you see.)
Growling one minute, shrieking the next.
Be worse with the F still in there
The bonkers thing is whatever key you do it in it's an octave jump up to that note. This is not how to make things easy!
Thank you both for your comments. I'm not conscious of trying to match the pitches the women are singing, but I'll make a conscious effort this Sunday to make sure that I'm not. I
It always helped to stand in front of one or the other of a few very fine altos, too. Support in the efforts, you know?
I hear you. I have a good fifth available below the C below middle C but there's no volume or projection available down there. But hymns are and should be primarily about the congregation.
For the first time in many, many years we are at a church that focuses on congregational singing -- and wow! does this congregation sing!
There is also no "special music" a thing I'd always been in church with and that sat less well with me the older I got.
How are you defining "special music" here?
Ah.
I think there's a place for both.
Can't wait for Pentecost!
In case anyone didn't know, O Jesus I Have Promised goes well to the muppet show theme.
At the (old) Bull and Bush?
However we - erm - seem to have strayed a little fromlast Sunday's hymns!
Thank you for this comment @Alan29 . Could we spell out in full the titles of hymns and choruses and tunes, please? To some people the acronyms are obvious, to others of us it involves guesswork or scrolling back, which can make reading the thread harder work than it needs to be.
Thank you.
Nenya - Ecclesiantics Host
In the unlikely event that came up at church I'd be sniggering over Python's All Things Dull and Ugly.
Folks will be pleased to hear that she is making a steady and real recovery from her recent serious illness.
O for a Thousand Tongues (LYNGHAM)
Thine Forever, God of Love (NEWINGTON)
Love Divine, All Loves Excelling (HYFRYDOL)
Immoral Immortal, invisible - St Denio
New every morning is the love - Melcombe
Name of all majesty - Name of All Majesty
Rock of ages - Petra
Holy, holy, holy, Lord God almighty - Nicaea
To God be the glory
God is our refuge and our strength
Do not be afraid
In heavenly love abiding
Lord, you have come to the seashore