Please see Styx thread on the Registered Shipmates consultation for the main discussion forums - your views are important, continues until April 4th.

Ship of Fools: St Magnus-the-Martyr, City of London


imageShip of Fools: St Magnus-the-Martyr, City of London

Utterly Anglican: power, justice, and kingdoms – excellent and sublime

Read the full Mystery Worshipper report here


«1

Comments

  • Details of the organ can be found here: https://www.npor.org.uk/NPORView.html?RI=N17699
  • I wonder if the service book they employ is the old English Missal - an attempt to (rather aggressively) adapt the BCP to pre-Vatican 2 Roman use?

    I once went to St Magnus, many years ago. It was Ascension Day (a Thursday, of course), and the Sung Mass was held at lunch-time. IIRC, there were 25 or so in the congregation, plus priest and servers, along with a 4-part choir in the gallery (SATB). I remember clouds of incense, and a beautifully sung Mass setting, one of young Herr Mozart's shorter, but still very chirpy, offerings.

    No refreshments on that occasion, but I guess on Sundays that the gathered congregation (who had probably fasted before Mass) would be more than ready for a delicious buffet brunch! Bread-and-cheese during Lent, I expect... :wink:

    The church itself is a little gem. Wren's superb architecture, along with the most ornate baroque fittings one could wish for.
  • Missed the Edit window... :grimace:

    RCC Shipmates will correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it used to be common practice (pre-Vatican 2?) for the clergy to say parts of the Mass whilst something was being sung. Hence the sometimes seemingly inordinate length of the Kyries or Sanctus, for example!
  • As I recall, the celebrant would recite the Introibo, the Confiteor, and the Kyrie while the choir was singing the Introit and Kyrie. He would then sit down before intoning the Gloria, if he finished before the choir did.

    Ditto for the Sanctus. He would recite the Eucharistic Prayer while the choir was singing the Sanctus, waiting until they were done before actually consecrating and elevating the elements. After which the choir would sing the Benedictus while he was finishing up the eucharistic prayer, right up to the Per Ipsum.
  • Thank you, Miss Amanda. I'm not sure how far this sort of thing was adopted in the C of E, but there aren't that many churches using the English Missal these days.

    Or churches with choirs, for that matter. Happily, St Magnus appears to be one of the lucky ones!
  • Utterly Anglican? With Latin?
  • As for the post service alcohol .... what about those whose temptations involve such a thing?
  • Utterly Anglican? With Latin?

    Using the Latin text for classical Mass settings is not unusual in the C of E, and is often found in Cathedrals. Most would provide a translation of the texts into English in the service booklet, and, as St Magnus also provided a booklet/leaflet, they may have done the same.
    As for the post service alcohol .... what about those whose temptations involve such a thing?

    Well, what about those whose temptations include chocolate? Are chocolate biscuits to be eschewed, too?
  • "There is a charm about the forbidden that makes it unspeakably desirable. . . . I deal with temptation by yielding to it." Mark Twain
  • Clinking ThuribleClinking Thurible Shipmate Posts: 2
    Utterly Anglican? With Latin?

    I'm not sure this would necessarily have been my own characterisation of the service at large. The sermon was perfectly Anglican. The liturgy? Utterly, and specifically, Anglo-Catholic.
  • Clinking ThuribleClinking Thurible Shipmate Posts: 2
    As for the post service alcohol .... what about those whose temptations involve such a thing?

    Copious alternatives were available, but not sampled.
  • Alan29Alan29 Shipmate
    Missed the Edit window... :grimace:

    RCC Shipmates will correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it used to be common practice (pre-Vatican 2?) for the clergy to say parts of the Mass whilst something was being sung. Hence the sometimes seemingly inordinate length of the Kyries or Sanctus, for example!

    Yes. I remember the clergy at the altar gabbling through the Gloria while the choir sang it, finishing minutes before the choir and then going to their sedilia to gaze meaningfully into space until the choir had finished. Similarly the priest would gabble the Sanctus and continue with the Eucharistic Prayer while the choir sang the Sanctus. He would wait for them to finish so that he could conscrate and then he would carry on silently with the EP while the choir sang the Benedictus. In fact I think the clergy silently recited everything the choir sang of the Proper and Ordinary, presumably on the basis that lay folk doing the words rendered them meaningless.
    And there are those who say that this nonsense didn't need reforming.
  • Alan29Alan29 Shipmate
    Utterly Anglican? With Latin?

    Yes. I think it was always allowed in Universities where the language would be understood. I believe the BCP was translated into Latin soon after its publication.
  • Alan29 wrote: »
    Utterly Anglican? With Latin?

    Yes. I think it was always allowed in Universities where the language would be understood. I believe the BCP was translated into Latin soon after its publication.

    AIUI, the 1662 BCP (in Latin) is still used at Oxford and Cambridge on special occasions.
    As for the post service alcohol .... what about those whose temptations involve such a thing?

    Copious alternatives were available, but not sampled.

    I expect you are referring to *Lemonade, and such other Sunday-school slops, responsible for dyspepsia, and half the crime in England* (with due acknowledgements to Jerome K Jerome).
    :wink:
  • 'layfolks doing the words rendered them meaningless' ?
    Well, yes and no. Remember that until the 2nd Vatican Council it was indeed 'the priest's Mass' He had to say everything,absolutely everything,even if at a Sung Mass there was a choir who sang the words also.
    Remember again that for most of the faithful they would not always attend a Sung Mass.
    Most people would usually attend a spoken Mass (Low Mass)

    Even more rarely would there be a Pontifical Mass where,in spite of all the flimflam of the bishop's vestments etc there was a 'division of labour' amongst the altar party and the Liturgy of the Word was carried out from the bishop's chair.

    This type of Mass became the template for the Novus Ordo which became,within the bounds of the possible,the people's Mass.
  • Utterly Anglican? With Latin?
    It was the sermon that was described in the report as “utterly Anglican,” not the service as a whole, as @Clinking Thurible has reiterated. So unless part of the sermon was in Latin . . . .

  • I think it's fair to say that St Magnus the Martyr is Anglican, albeit at the nosebleed high end of the (very long) Anglican candle...
  • Doesn't the prayer book and/or the Canons require the service to be in the vernacular?
  • Doesn't the prayer book and/or the Canons require the service to be in the vernacular?

    as has been said, except in such places where Latin is the vernacular...

  • *sigh*

    I repeat:

    In many Anglican cathedrals*, it is common for Latin texts to be sung if a classical setting, which was composed for the Latin words, is being used. In such cases, it is also common for the congregation to be provided with a translation from Latin into English in their service booklet, even though they themselves are not required to join in the singing.

    A service leaflet was handed to each person attending this service at St Magnus. Perhaps @Clinking Thurible could confirm whether or not an English translation of the various sung parts of the Mass was included?

    I suppose now there will be a complaint that EVERYONE should be able to join in EVERYTHING.

    (*and, of course, in churches and cathedrals in other countries, where neither Latin nor English are the vernacular. Classical Mass settings are universal property, in a way, and this may not be appreciated by minds which are rather insular).
  • I suppose now there will be a complaint that EVERYONE should be able to join in EVERYTHING.

    EVERYONE should know Latin. It is, after all, God's native tongue (or is that Hebrew?).
  • Gee DGee D Shipmate
    I suppose now there will be a complaint that EVERYONE should be able to join in EVERYTHING.

    EVERYONE should know Latin. It is, after all, God's native tongue (or is that Hebrew?).

    But as God is an Englishman, His native tongue is English
  • Um, no. England was not even a wink in his eye when he blew up a dust cloud and out sprang Adam. But we digress.
  • Um, no. England was not even a wink in his eye when he blew up a dust cloud and out sprang Adam.
    Ah, but did those feet in ancient time . . . ?

    Sorry, I couldn’t resist. I’ll go sit in the corner now.

  • He wouldn't have been the first tourist to have had to rely on a phrase book. Even Monty Python knew that.

    May Miss Amanda join you in your corner?
  • Doesn't the prayer book and/or the Canons require the service to be in the vernacular?

    as has been said, except in such places where Latin is the vernacular...

    Nowhere in the UK then
  • *sigh*

    I repeat:

    In many Anglican cathedrals*, it is common for Latin texts to be sung if a classical setting, which was composed for the Latin words, is being used. In such cases, it is also common for the congregation to be provided with a translation from Latin into English in their service booklet, even though they themselves are not required to join in the singing.

    A service leaflet was handed to each person attending this service at St Magnus. Perhaps @Clinking Thurible could confirm whether or not an English translation of the various sung parts of the Mass was included?

    I suppose now there will be a complaint that EVERYONE should be able to join in EVERYTHING.

    (*and, of course, in churches and cathedrals in other countries, where neither Latin nor English are the vernacular. Classical Mass settings are universal property, in a way, and this may not be appreciated by minds which are rather insular).

    Not a complaint but an observation. Making parts of a service inaccessible can render the whole thing just the same
  • Nick Tamen wrote: »
    Um, no. England was not even a wink in his eye when he blew up a dust cloud and out sprang Adam.
    Ah, but did those feet in ancient time . . . ?

    Sorry, I couldn’t resist. I’ll go sit in the corner now.

    No they didn't. Next
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    I suppose now there will be a complaint that EVERYONE should be able to join in EVERYTHING.

    EVERYONE should know Latin. It is, after all, God's native tongue (or is that Hebrew?).

    Welsh.
  • SpikeSpike Ecclesiantics & MW Host, Admin Emeritus
    *sigh*

    I repeat:

    In many Anglican cathedrals*, it is common for Latin texts to be sung if a classical setting, which was composed for the Latin words, is being used. In such cases, it is also common for the congregation to be provided with a translation from Latin into English in their service booklet, even though they themselves are not required to join in the singing.

    A service leaflet was handed to each person attending this service at St Magnus. Perhaps @Clinking Thurible could confirm whether or not an English translation of the various sung parts of the Mass was included?

    I suppose now there will be a complaint that EVERYONE should be able to join in EVERYTHING.

    (*and, of course, in churches and cathedrals in other countries, where neither Latin nor English are the vernacular. Classical Mass settings are universal property, in a way, and this may not be appreciated by minds which are rather insular).

    Not a complaint but an observation. Making parts of a service inaccessible can render the whole thing just the same

    What’s inaccessible about it?
  • Do we know for a fact that the worshippers at St Magnus found the Latin texts inaccessible ?
    Should they have used also Chinese texts in case a non English speaking Chinese person happened to be in the congregation ?
  • Spike wrote: »
    *sigh*

    I repeat:

    In many Anglican cathedrals*, it is common for Latin texts to be sung if a classical setting, which was composed for the Latin words, is being used. In such cases, it is also common for the congregation to be provided with a translation from Latin into English in their service booklet, even though they themselves are not required to join in the singing.

    A service leaflet was handed to each person attending this service at St Magnus. Perhaps @Clinking Thurible could confirm whether or not an English translation of the various sung parts of the Mass was included?

    I suppose now there will be a complaint that EVERYONE should be able to join in EVERYTHING.

    (*and, of course, in churches and cathedrals in other countries, where neither Latin nor English are the vernacular. Classical Mass settings are universal property, in a way, and this may not be appreciated by minds which are rather insular).

    Not a complaint but an observation. Making parts of a service inaccessible can render the whole thing just the same

    What’s inaccessible about it?

    It's not "normal" language. using it can also bring a sense of inappropriater elitism to those who presume to grasp what its about
  • Quoting from the answer to "How full was the building?": "None of the congregation live in the parish. All commute in from near and (relatively) far."

    I should think that anyone who would seek out this church, or indeed any church that has a reputation for nosebleed-high Anglo-Catholicism, would be well aware of what they could expect to find.
  • I'm sure this is so - the resident population of the parish is virtually nil, I think.

    The same would apply to anyone visiting the church for a weekday Mass, although I doubt if Latin is used unless it's a special Holyday, and there's a Sung Mass instead of a simple Low Mass.

  • And that sobbing you hear is the baby Jesus and his Blessed Mother. :cry:
  • Spike wrote: »
    *sigh*

    I repeat:

    In many Anglican cathedrals*, it is common for Latin texts to be sung if a classical setting, which was composed for the Latin words, is being used. In such cases, it is also common for the congregation to be provided with a translation from Latin into English in their service booklet, even though they themselves are not required to join in the singing.

    A service leaflet was handed to each person attending this service at St Magnus. Perhaps @Clinking Thurible could confirm whether or not an English translation of the various sung parts of the Mass was included?

    I suppose now there will be a complaint that EVERYONE should be able to join in EVERYTHING.

    (*and, of course, in churches and cathedrals in other countries, where neither Latin nor English are the vernacular. Classical Mass settings are universal property, in a way, and this may not be appreciated by minds which are rather insular).

    Not a complaint but an observation. Making parts of a service inaccessible can render the whole thing just the same

    What’s inaccessible about it?

    It's not "normal" language. using it can also bring a sense of inappropriater elitism to those who presume to grasp what its about

    are you speaking from personal experience there or is it what you think's happening in other people's heads?
  • Spike wrote: »
    *sigh*

    I repeat:

    In many Anglican cathedrals*, it is common for Latin texts to be sung if a classical setting, which was composed for the Latin words, is being used. In such cases, it is also common for the congregation to be provided with a translation from Latin into English in their service booklet, even though they themselves are not required to join in the singing.

    A service leaflet was handed to each person attending this service at St Magnus. Perhaps @Clinking Thurible could confirm whether or not an English translation of the various sung parts of the Mass was included?

    I suppose now there will be a complaint that EVERYONE should be able to join in EVERYTHING.

    (*and, of course, in churches and cathedrals in other countries, where neither Latin nor English are the vernacular. Classical Mass settings are universal property, in a way, and this may not be appreciated by minds which are rather insular).

    Not a complaint but an observation. Making parts of a service inaccessible can render the whole thing just the same

    What’s inaccessible about it?

    It's not "normal" language. using it can also bring a sense of inappropriater elitism to those who presume to grasp what its about

    Does not matter. Those who want to go there will be OK with what is “normal” for them. A hardcore Anglophone nonconformist will not be made unwelcome but can hardly expect their liturgical tastes to be gratified.

    Horses for courses and all that…
  • This.

    I'd still like to know if the English Missal (or similar) was used for the majority of the Mass. It has Prayer Book-type language IIRC, so perhaps could also be accused of being elitist and inaccessible.

  • And that sobbing you hear is the baby Jesus and his Blessed Mother. :cry:
    Er he's definately not a baby anymore

  • Spike wrote: »
    *sigh*

    I repeat:

    In many Anglican cathedrals*, it is common for Latin texts to be sung if a classical setting, which was composed for the Latin words, is being used. In such cases, it is also common for the congregation to be provided with a translation from Latin into English in their service booklet, even though they themselves are not required to join in the singing.

    A service leaflet was handed to each person attending this service at St Magnus. Perhaps @Clinking Thurible could confirm whether or not an English translation of the various sung parts of the Mass was included?

    I suppose now there will be a complaint that EVERYONE should be able to join in EVERYTHING.

    (*and, of course, in churches and cathedrals in other countries, where neither Latin nor English are the vernacular. Classical Mass settings are universal property, in a way, and this may not be appreciated by minds which are rather insular).

    Not a complaint but an observation. Making parts of a service inaccessible can render the whole thing just the same

    What’s inaccessible about it?

    It's not "normal" language. using it can also bring a sense of inappropriater elitism to those who presume to grasp what its about

    are you speaking from personal experience there or is it what you think's happening in other people's heads?

    I don't know what goes on in other people's heads ...it's hard enough working out what gos on in mine.

    A combination of knowledge and experience to answer your question.
  • Let's not stray too far from the reporter's observations. It makes the Baby Jesus and his Blessed Mother cry, despite what some may think.

    @Amanda B Reckondwyth
    Lead Editor, Mystery Worship
  • Alan29Alan29 Shipmate
    I would be interested to know the composition of the congregation in terms of social class.
  • I see from their website that the High Mass at 11 a.m. on Sundays is generally live streamed.
    Might it be a good idea to watch and find out answers to at least some of the questions put ?
  • Alan29Alan29 Shipmate
    Forthview wrote: »
    I see from their website that the High Mass at 11 a.m. on Sundays is generally live streamed.
    Might it be a good idea to watch and find out answers to at least some of the questions put ?

    Unfortunately that is when I play at Mass.
  • It looks like they have a library of videos on their Facebook page -- which also quite wisely links to the Mystery Worship report.
  • Alan29Alan29 Shipmate
    It looks like they have a library of videos on their Facebook page -- which also quite wisely links to the Mystery Worship report.

    Thanks for that. I really dont know what to make of what I have just seen on those vids.
  • AmosAmos Shipmate
    A great many of the churches in the City of London are of the HTB style; there's also St Helen's Bishopsgate. If St Magnus the Martyr doesn't satisfy your soul, there are plenty of other options.
  • Alan29Alan29 Shipmate
    Amos wrote: »
    A great many of the churches in the City of London are of the HTB style; there's also St Helen's Bishopsgate. If St Magnus the Martyr doesn't satisfy your soul, there are plenty of other options.

    HTB = highly tensed buttocks?
  • Holy Trinity Brompton - the wonderful, vibrant, exciting, dynamic etc. etc. megachurch (with its minions and myrmidons), seen by some as the only hope for the C of E.

    St Helen's Bishopsgate is of the VERY conservative-evangelical type.
  • I looked through at least some of last Sunday's Mass at St Magnus.In some ways it was very like a Tridentine High Mass,though in Tudor English.It started with the Asperges in Latin though the priest's prayer was in English.
    Again after that all as in Tridentine times with Introibo,Confiteor etc.while the choir sang
    the Introit and Kyrie.
    The E.P. was the Roman Canon spoken out loud in Tudor English with prayer for the pope and Bishop Jonathan (so not the bishop of London) in their usual place in the roman Canon.
    HOWEVER the Readings were those of the appropriate Sunday in Ordinary Time (modern Roman,not Tridentine) with a lay Reader and Gospel proclaimed in the middle of the church which is not Tridentine.
    I did see some pictures,not a video ,showing the Good Friday services there which appeared to follow the rite (with black folded chasubles) which is not only from the Tridentine rite but from the Tridentine rite of the period before the reforms of the Holy Week ceremonies promulgated in the early 1950s by pope Pius XII

    All in all it is a very eclectic mix,but it seems to suit those who come to the church and find that this is their way of praising God.
Sign In or Register to comment.