Ship of Fools: St Magnus-the-Martyr, City of London
The Mystery Worshipper
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Ship of Fools: St Magnus-the-Martyr, City of London
Utterly Anglican: power, justice, and kingdoms – excellent and sublime
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I once went to St Magnus, many years ago. It was Ascension Day (a Thursday, of course), and the Sung Mass was held at lunch-time. IIRC, there were 25 or so in the congregation, plus priest and servers, along with a 4-part choir in the gallery (SATB). I remember clouds of incense, and a beautifully sung Mass setting, one of young Herr Mozart's shorter, but still very chirpy, offerings.
No refreshments on that occasion, but I guess on Sundays that the gathered congregation (who had probably fasted before Mass) would be more than ready for a delicious buffet brunch! Bread-and-cheese during Lent, I expect...
The church itself is a little gem. Wren's superb architecture, along with the most ornate baroque fittings one could wish for.
RCC Shipmates will correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it used to be common practice (pre-Vatican 2?) for the clergy to say parts of the Mass whilst something was being sung. Hence the sometimes seemingly inordinate length of the Kyries or Sanctus, for example!
Ditto for the Sanctus. He would recite the Eucharistic Prayer while the choir was singing the Sanctus, waiting until they were done before actually consecrating and elevating the elements. After which the choir would sing the Benedictus while he was finishing up the eucharistic prayer, right up to the Per Ipsum.
Or churches with choirs, for that matter. Happily, St Magnus appears to be one of the lucky ones!
Using the Latin text for classical Mass settings is not unusual in the C of E, and is often found in Cathedrals. Most would provide a translation of the texts into English in the service booklet, and, as St Magnus also provided a booklet/leaflet, they may have done the same.
Well, what about those whose temptations include chocolate? Are chocolate biscuits to be eschewed, too?
I'm not sure this would necessarily have been my own characterisation of the service at large. The sermon was perfectly Anglican. The liturgy? Utterly, and specifically, Anglo-Catholic.
Copious alternatives were available, but not sampled.
Yes. I remember the clergy at the altar gabbling through the Gloria while the choir sang it, finishing minutes before the choir and then going to their sedilia to gaze meaningfully into space until the choir had finished. Similarly the priest would gabble the Sanctus and continue with the Eucharistic Prayer while the choir sang the Sanctus. He would wait for them to finish so that he could conscrate and then he would carry on silently with the EP while the choir sang the Benedictus. In fact I think the clergy silently recited everything the choir sang of the Proper and Ordinary, presumably on the basis that lay folk doing the words rendered them meaningless.
And there are those who say that this nonsense didn't need reforming.
Yes. I think it was always allowed in Universities where the language would be understood. I believe the BCP was translated into Latin soon after its publication.
AIUI, the 1662 BCP (in Latin) is still used at Oxford and Cambridge on special occasions.
I expect you are referring to *Lemonade, and such other Sunday-school slops, responsible for dyspepsia, and half the crime in England* (with due acknowledgements to Jerome K Jerome).
Well, yes and no. Remember that until the 2nd Vatican Council it was indeed 'the priest's Mass' He had to say everything,absolutely everything,even if at a Sung Mass there was a choir who sang the words also.
Remember again that for most of the faithful they would not always attend a Sung Mass.
Most people would usually attend a spoken Mass (Low Mass)
Even more rarely would there be a Pontifical Mass where,in spite of all the flimflam of the bishop's vestments etc there was a 'division of labour' amongst the altar party and the Liturgy of the Word was carried out from the bishop's chair.
This type of Mass became the template for the Novus Ordo which became,within the bounds of the possible,the people's Mass.
as has been said, except in such places where Latin is the vernacular...
I repeat:
In many Anglican cathedrals*, it is common for Latin texts to be sung if a classical setting, which was composed for the Latin words, is being used. In such cases, it is also common for the congregation to be provided with a translation from Latin into English in their service booklet, even though they themselves are not required to join in the singing.
A service leaflet was handed to each person attending this service at St Magnus. Perhaps @Clinking Thurible could confirm whether or not an English translation of the various sung parts of the Mass was included?
I suppose now there will be a complaint that EVERYONE should be able to join in EVERYTHING.
(*and, of course, in churches and cathedrals in other countries, where neither Latin nor English are the vernacular. Classical Mass settings are universal property, in a way, and this may not be appreciated by minds which are rather insular).
EVERYONE should know Latin. It is, after all, God's native tongue (or is that Hebrew?).
But as God is an Englishman, His native tongue is English
Sorry, I couldn’t resist. I’ll go sit in the corner now.
May Miss Amanda join you in your corner?
Nowhere in the UK then
Not a complaint but an observation. Making parts of a service inaccessible can render the whole thing just the same
No they didn't. Next
Welsh.
What’s inaccessible about it?
Should they have used also Chinese texts in case a non English speaking Chinese person happened to be in the congregation ?
It's not "normal" language. using it can also bring a sense of inappropriater elitism to those who presume to grasp what its about
I should think that anyone who would seek out this church, or indeed any church that has a reputation for nosebleed-high Anglo-Catholicism, would be well aware of what they could expect to find.
The same would apply to anyone visiting the church for a weekday Mass, although I doubt if Latin is used unless it's a special Holyday, and there's a Sung Mass instead of a simple Low Mass.
are you speaking from personal experience there or is it what you think's happening in other people's heads?
Does not matter. Those who want to go there will be OK with what is “normal” for them. A hardcore Anglophone nonconformist will not be made unwelcome but can hardly expect their liturgical tastes to be gratified.
Horses for courses and all that…
I'd still like to know if the English Missal (or similar) was used for the majority of the Mass. It has Prayer Book-type language IIRC, so perhaps could also be accused of being elitist and inaccessible.
I don't know what goes on in other people's heads ...it's hard enough working out what gos on in mine.
A combination of knowledge and experience to answer your question.
@Amanda B Reckondwyth
Lead Editor, Mystery Worship
Might it be a good idea to watch and find out answers to at least some of the questions put ?
Unfortunately that is when I play at Mass.
Thanks for that. I really dont know what to make of what I have just seen on those vids.
HTB = highly tensed buttocks?
St Helen's Bishopsgate is of the VERY conservative-evangelical type.
Again after that all as in Tridentine times with Introibo,Confiteor etc.while the choir sang
the Introit and Kyrie.
The E.P. was the Roman Canon spoken out loud in Tudor English with prayer for the pope and Bishop Jonathan (so not the bishop of London) in their usual place in the roman Canon.
HOWEVER the Readings were those of the appropriate Sunday in Ordinary Time (modern Roman,not Tridentine) with a lay Reader and Gospel proclaimed in the middle of the church which is not Tridentine.
I did see some pictures,not a video ,showing the Good Friday services there which appeared to follow the rite (with black folded chasubles) which is not only from the Tridentine rite but from the Tridentine rite of the period before the reforms of the Holy Week ceremonies promulgated in the early 1950s by pope Pius XII
All in all it is a very eclectic mix,but it seems to suit those who come to the church and find that this is their way of praising God.