Yes, the C of E is in communion with most of the Nordic Lutheran Churches - one of the parishes in Next Town had a curate a while back who was Swedish, and had been ordained in the Lutheran Church of Sweden. I think she has since moved on to minister elsewhere in England.
I was intrigued in the clip which BF posted from a Lutheran cathedral in Finnland to see a little ceremony when the members of the congregation came forward and appeared to put a coin in a basket held by two other members of the congregation.
This was until late 18th century how people would participate personally in the Sunday eucharist - well ,certainly in German speaking lands.
At the time of the 'Offertory' each person would come forward and put a coin in a basket.
This replaced the bread and wine which would have been offered in previous centuries.
Gradually it became the custom to pass the basket round the congregation and have it all brought up by one person.
In the restored 'Presentation of the Gifts 'in the Roman rite bread and wine as well as other gifts are brought to the celebrant
Yes, I noticed that - but you will also have spotted that the *collectors* wore facemasks. I wonder if Covid has, as it were, restored this old practice?
The priest also wore a facemask whilst at the altar, and she managed to tunefully sing the whole of the Eucharistic Prayer through the mask...
It may be that Finland has been more careful than the UK for a longer period as regards Covid - the service took place in May 2022.
My thanks to all for the information regarding the most Vital Question of the shape of the chasuble...
(FWIW, what you describe, at least in terms of how the ministers and elders are seated, is rarely seen in American Presbyterian churches, at least in my experience. And pew communion is becoming less common here.)
I've seen a few older Presbyterian churches with the "church as courtroom" arrangement: the ministers on big chairs above the holy table, and the choir above them. Fourth Presbyterian here in Chicago is like that. But I'd imagine most Presbyterian churches are now all on one level, mainly, and not so different from other mainline churches or even Roman Catholic ones.
Yes, the church I grew up in has that arrangement, though much smaller and not nearly as . . . imposing? . . . as Fourth Pres, Chicago. That arrangement can be done in a way that’s more “gathered” and doesn’t remind one of a courtroom, but it often wasn’t.
In my experience, at least in my part of the country, if a Presbyterian church was built or last renovated prior to WWII or so, it is likely to have the pulpit-centered arrangement you describe, with the choir either above/behind the pulpit or in a rear gallery. If the church was built or renovated between the late 40s and the late 70s, it’s likely to have a divided chancel, with pulpit and lectern. If built or renovated since the early 80s or so, it’s likely to be table-centered—perhaps one level or with a “chancel” that’s only modestly elevated—with a pulpit but no lectern, and with the font in a more prominent position.
I know of quite a few churches that have been through all three stages. First Pres in Asheville, NC, can be seen as it looked after renovation in 1890 here. This is what it looked like in the 1940s, when my parents were married there. After major renovation (and enlargement) around 1951, it looked like this. And after renovation in the last decade, it now looks like this and this. (The pulpit and table usually have paraments on them.)
Regarding the Porvoo Communion, would Anglican churches in general be in Communion with the Church of Sweden, or just the Church of England, the Scottish Episcopal Church, the Church in Wales and the Church of Ireland, who are actual members of the Porvoo Communion? In the US, for example, the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) and the Episcopal Church are both in communion with the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, but that doesn’t translate into the PC(USA) and TEC being in communion with each other.
One more point here - though not about the form of the chasuble. The eucharist in question took place on 15th May 2022 in the Easter period (one can see the Easter/Paschal candle).
However in Finland (both Finnish and Swedish speaking) it is The Day of the Fallen Soldier, commemorating those who fell in the Winter War in the 1940s and in any other engagements where Finnish soldiers might have died.
You will see that at one point some people come to light a candle obviously to recall a fallen soldier in their family.
That is the meaning of ' De Stupades dag ' celebrated on 3rd Sunday in May.
Regarding the Porvoo Communion, would Anglican churches in general be in Communion with the Church of Sweden, or just the Church of England, the Scottish Episcopal Church, the Church in Wales and the Church of Ireland, who are actual members of the Porvoo Communion? In the US, for example, the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) and the Episcopal Church are both in communion with the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, but that doesn’t translate into the PC(USA) and TEC being in communion with each other.
Given that Anglican churches aren't even all sure that they're in communion with each other I'd say no. Communion does not appear to be transitive.
Our late lamented Shipmate leo had some experience of how Lutheran and Anglican churches and clergy interacted in this country. There aren't that many Lutheran congregations here - my nearest is in London - but there are connections elsewhere. My local Diocese is twinned with that of Tallinn (Estonia), and clergy from that country have been known to preside at the Eucharist here, as authorised.
Our late lamented Shipmate leo had some experience of how Lutheran and Anglican churches and clergy interacted in this country. There aren't that many Lutheran congregations here - my nearest is in London - but there are connections elsewhere. My local Diocese is twinned with that of Tallinn (Estonia), and clergy from that country have been known to preside at the Eucharist here, as authorised.
Shipmate @kmann also has direct experience with the workings of the Porvoo Communion, I believe—if I recall correctly, he’s Norwegian and is a pastor/priest (I forget which term they prefer) in the Church of Norway. But it doesn’t look like he’s been on board since September.
Our late lamented Shipmate leo had some experience of how Lutheran and Anglican churches and clergy interacted in this country. There aren't that many Lutheran congregations here - my nearest is in London - but there are connections elsewhere. My local Diocese is twinned with that of Tallinn (Estonia), and clergy from that country have been known to preside at the Eucharist here, as authorised.
Shipmate @kmann also has direct experience with the workings of the Porvoo Communion, I believe—if I recall correctly, he’s Norwegian and is a pastor/priest (I forget which term they prefer) in the Church of Norway. But it doesn’t look like he’s been on board since September.
I expect it will be available on YouTube or something, but will probably be a fairly long ceremony. Maybe RCC Shipmates could at least provide a summary, and/or a suitable linky?
I expect it will be available on YouTube or something, but will probably be a fairly long ceremony. Maybe RCC Shipmates could at least provide a summary, and/or a suitable linky?
Of course youtube videos can be played back at double speed if appropriate.
I expect it will be available on YouTube or something, but will probably be a fairly long ceremony. Maybe RCC Shipmates could at least provide a summary, and/or a suitable linky?
Of course youtube videos can be played back at double speed if appropriate.
If you dont want to sit through the funeral, here's the booklet. https://www.vatican.va/news_services/liturgy/libretti/2023/20230105-libretto-esequie-sepoltura_pont-emerito.pdf
As a point of interest, Francis is now too gammy in the leg department to stand at the altar, so he now seems to preside from the chair, doing all the bits that don't need him to be at the altar where someone else takes over. He does this in cope and mitre. I have never seen this sharing out of the roles in any other circumstances in an RC Mass. Usually where a bishop used to preside from the throne and someone else led the Mass, the bishop was little more than an ornament and too very little active part except for the odd blessing.
Having done a bit of research if a bishop is presiding from his cathedra and not concelebrating, he takes charge of the liturgy up to the offertory and after communion in cope and mitre.
You live and learn.
Regarding the Porvoo Communion, would Anglican churches in general be in Communion with the Church of Sweden, or just the Church of England, the Scottish Episcopal Church, the Church in Wales and the Church of Ireland, who are actual members of the Porvoo Communion? In the US, for example, the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) and the Episcopal Church are both in communion with the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, but that doesn’t translate into the PC(USA) and TEC being in communion with each other.
Thank you all for your comments on the Porvoo point. On balance, I think that Nick Tamen's point is right - Anglicans here are in communion with the other member churches of the Anglican Communion, but not from that in communion with any non-Anglican church that those members may be in communion. I'd be surprised though if we were not welcome were we to attend one of them.
Popes funeral. It was pretty much a standard RC requiem. Just like the one we celebrated for our parish sister yesterday, but with a cast of thousands of course and not in English.
I thought that the Second Reading was to be in English,(although I didn't see it)
It was interesting that the Tridentine Mass verse at the Offertory was sung.It has been cut from the present form of the Requiem Mass.
I was surprised how fragile Pope Francis looked.
I thought that the Second Reading was to be in English,(although I didn't see it)
It was interesting that the Tridentine Mass verse at the Offertory was sung.It has been cut from the present form of the Requiem Mass.
I was surprised how fragile Pope Francis looked.
I vaguely recall from watching Pope Francis celebrating mass at the Vatican during the pandemic that the choir would intone the offertory chant at at least a couple of them. There is no prohibition on having the offertory verse in the current Ordinary Form- there is a time where hymns or psalms can be sung at the offertory and it is one of multiple options that can be used at that time.
I saw a picture where the army of concelebrating priests appears to all be holding ciboria (is that the right term? They weren’t patens) of hosts in one hand and consecrating with the other hand outstretched towards the altar, all while standing at their plastic chairs in the square. This reflects a very Vatican II liturgical sensibility (even if it seems a bit awkward, since they were also trying to hold their service booklets). At stadium masses, they often have a “pregame” mass where they consecrate the majority of the many hosts to be distributed. It looks like they not only wanted to have as many priests attending concelebrating as possible, they also wanted as many of the hosts distributed to be consecrated at the funeral mass itself and not before. This is something I think Benedict would have liked and is definitely not something ardent liturgical traditionalists would favor.
Maybe I saw it wrong though. Were all the hosts to be consecrated on some giant altar instead? And maybe the picture I saw was taken after consecration?
I was posting in haste and I would not have known of a Philip Neri Chasuble if it was not for the coincidence that we might be getting one as St Obscures
I wouldn't worry too much about that. Filippo Neri ,as indeed also Carlo Borromeo ,were two very influential priests at the time of the Counter Reformation.
It was in the wake of the council of Trent that these two types of chasuble became almost the norm in post Tridentine baroque Catholicism.
Regarding the Porvoo Communion, would Anglican churches in general be in Communion with the Church of Sweden, or just the Church of England, the Scottish Episcopal Church, the Church in Wales and the Church of Ireland, who are actual members of the Porvoo Communion? In the US, for example, the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) and the Episcopal Church are both in communion with the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, but that doesn’t translate into the PC(USA) and TEC being in communion with each other.
Thank you all for your comments on the Porvoo point. On balance, I think that Nick Tamen's point is right - Anglicans here are in communion with the other member churches of the Anglican Communion, but not from that in communion with any non-Anglican church that those members may be in communion. I'd be surprised though if we were not welcome were we to attend one of them.
@Gee D our friend the late Fr JP was ordained here as an Anglican priest, ministered to Australian parishes, moved to Sweden where his orders were recognised by the Swedish church, and married a Swedish lady. After quite a number of years they returned to our diocese where he once again took up parish ministry. His wife was trained and ordained in our diocese after serving part of her training in our parish and took up parish ministry on the Central Coast. They returned to Sweden to care for her elderly parents, where she took up parish ministry and prison chaplaincy in the Swedish church. Fr J has since died and Mthr L has now retired from active ministry, but their circumstances suggest to me that the links are strong despite the lack of formal signature on Porvoo.
@Gee D our friend the late Fr JP was ordained here as an Anglican priest, ministered to Australian parishes, moved to Sweden where his orders were recognised by the Swedish church, and married a Swedish lady. After quite a number of years they returned to our diocese where he once again took up parish ministry. His wife was trained and ordained in our diocese after serving part of her training in our parish and took up parish ministry on the Central Coast. They returned to Sweden to care for her elderly parents, where she took up parish ministry and prison chaplaincy in the Swedish church. Fr J has since died and Mthr L has now retired from active ministry, but their circumstances suggest to me that the links are strong despite the lack of formal signature on Porvoo.
All of which is good news (save of course for the death of Fr J) showing real ecumenism in action.
Thank you both. As an aside, has either of you noticed how hard it is to find a Lutheran church here? There's one in the next suburb south from us, another in the suburb where St Sanity is. We've been unable to find either.
I don't think there are any Lutheran communities in Scotland apart from the German Lutheran church in Edinburgh and Glasgow served by the one pastor who covers Newcastle also. There used to be a Norwegian church which was sold several years ago but which has an interesting website detailing its history.
In many countries Epiphany was celebrated yesterday on the traditional date. In Austria between 28th Dec. and 6th Jan. many houses are visited by the Three Kings ( and sometimes more).They are called starsingers,they go around houses singing and 'bringing good news of Christ's birth' and at the same time collecting money for good causes.
On 6th January they come to churches and take part in the liturgy.
'livestream und Uebertragungen aus dem Dom zu Klagenfurt' will show via its facebook page the visit of the Kings,over 20 of them. Most of them seem to be dressed in 'Roman style' chasubles from the cathedral's collection of old vestments. This included four adults,vested two in 'Roman' chasubles and two in Dalmatics, who sang beautiful traditional music (one of them was the Domkapellmeister/music director and of the others one was the Domorganist/cathedral organist.
The Dompfarrer/cathedral priest is an excellent preacher and first class communicator,though ,of course,it is in German.
In many countries Epiphany was celebrated yesterday on the traditional date. In Austria between 28th Dec. and 6th Jan. many houses are visited by the Three Kings ( and sometimes more).They are called starsingers,they go around houses singing and 'bringing good news of Christ's birth' and at the same time collecting money for good causes.
On 6th January they come to churches and take part in the liturgy.
'livestream und Uebertragungen aus dem Dom zu Klagenfurt' will show via its facebook page the visit of the Kings,over 20 of them. Most of them seem to be dressed in 'Roman style' chasubles from the cathedral's collection of old vestments. This included four adults,vested two in 'Roman' chasubles and two in Dalmatics, who sang beautiful traditional music (one of them was the Domkapellmeister/music director and of the others one was the Domorganist/cathedral organist.
The Dompfarrer/cathedral priest is an excellent preacher and first class communicator,though ,of course,it is in German.
And don't forget there are three heads in a reliquary in Cologne cathedral that are said to have belonged to the Three? Kings? I wonder if they get them out on Jan 6th.
Yes, their three crowns form part of the coat of arms of the city (along with the eleven 'black' flames or tears of St Ursula,but that is an other story !)
Epiphany on the Day itself doesn't seem to feature very much in churches around here, although the Cathedral had a Solemn Eucharist at 530pm yesterday in what is usually the Evensong slot. Tomorrow, they are celebrating The Baptism of Christ at the morning Eucharist, whilst Evensong will include The Blessing of the Plough.
Our Place had two Masses yesterday - 10am (the default Friday time) and 730pm - but I haven't yet heard how many attended either of them.
BTW, the Nordic Lutherans also seem to celebrate Epiphany on the 6th - there was a fair congregation in Uppsala Cathedral yesterday morning.
In many countries Epiphany was celebrated yesterday on the traditional date. In Austria between 28th Dec. and 6th Jan. many houses are visited by the Three Kings ( and sometimes more).They are called starsingers,they go around houses singing and 'bringing good news of Christ's birth' and at the same time collecting money for good causes.
On 6th January they come to churches and take part in the liturgy.
'livestream und Uebertragungen aus dem Dom zu Klagenfurt' will show via its facebook page the visit of the Kings,over 20 of them. Most of them seem to be dressed in 'Roman style' chasubles from the cathedral's collection of old vestments. This included four adults,vested two in 'Roman' chasubles and two in Dalmatics, who sang beautiful traditional music (one of them was the Domkapellmeister/music director and of the others one was the Domorganist/cathedral organist.
The Dompfarrer/cathedral priest is an excellent preacher and first class communicator,though ,of course,it is in German.
And don't forget there are three heads in a reliquary in Cologne cathedral that are said to have belonged to the Three? Kings? I wonder if they get them out on Jan 6th.
Yes, their three crowns form part of the coat of arms of the city . . . .
And that is said to be the origin of the carol “I Saw Three Ships,” the ships originally being those that brought the relics of the Three Kings to Cologne. At some point later, the ships began to bear “our Savior Christ and his Lady” instead.
And don't forget there are three heads in a reliquary in Cologne cathedral that are said to have belonged to the Three? Kings? I wonder if they get them out on Jan 6th.
They didn't get them out, but they reverenced the reliquary with incense during the Pontifical Mass.
At the end of the ceremony we could see the children who represented the wise Men from the East.These children are unlikely to forget the part which they played in today's ceremony. While it may be in some senses a little bit of kitsch,it is no more so than the many who may have sung today 'We three Kings of Orient are.....' that is just as infantile,if it has no meaning for those who sing.
Our late lamented Shipmate leo had some experience of how Lutheran and Anglican churches and clergy interacted in this country. There aren't that many Lutheran congregations here - my nearest is in London - but there are connections elsewhere. My local Diocese is twinned with that of Tallinn (Estonia), and clergy from that country have been known to preside at the Eucharist here, as authorised.
Shipmate @kmann also has direct experience with the workings of the Porvoo Communion, I believe—if I recall correctly, he’s Norwegian and is a pastor/priest (I forget which term they prefer) in the Church of Norway. But it doesn’t look like he’s been on board since September.
I lived in England for three years, doing my PhD in Durham. But I simply went to Church of England congregations - usually St. Andrew's Spennymoor or Christ the King Bowburn (Society parishes) or the Cathedral. I was on route to get a PTO in the Durham diocese but covid hit, so it fell apart.
Our late lamented Shipmate leo had some experience of how Lutheran and Anglican churches and clergy interacted in this country. There aren't that many Lutheran congregations here - my nearest is in London - but there are connections elsewhere. My local Diocese is twinned with that of Tallinn (Estonia), and clergy from that country have been known to preside at the Eucharist here, as authorised.
Shipmate @kmann also has direct experience with the workings of the Porvoo Communion, I believe—if I recall correctly, he’s Norwegian and is a pastor/priest (I forget which term they prefer) in the Church of Norway. But it doesn’t look like he’s been on board since September.
I lived in England for three years, doing my PhD in Durham. But I simply went to Church of England congregations - usually St. Andrew's Spennymoor or Christ the King Bowburn (Society parishes) or the Cathedral. I was on route to get a PTO in the Durham diocese but covid hit, so it fell apart.
Sorry to hear that @kmann - but welcome back, anyway!
As a (rather late - I'm not as frequently aboard as I once was) observation regarding Porvoo, in Canada the Anglican Church and the Evangelical Lutheran Church are in full communion. A few years ago I was visiting my home town and was a little surprised to learn that the woman who was the Anglican priest was also conducting services at the Lutheran church (actually within walking distance of one another). I was a little surprised because the Lutheran congregation included parishioners who would have been almost unilingually fennophones. As noted above, the relationship with the ELCIC is warmer than between certain dioceses within the Anglican Church.
As a (rather late - I'm not as frequently aboard as I once was) observation regarding Porvoo, in Canada the Anglican Church and the Evangelical Lutheran Church are in full communion. A few years ago I was visiting my home town and was a little surprised to learn that the woman who was the Anglican priest was also conducting services at the Lutheran church (actually within walking distance of one another). I was a little surprised because the Lutheran congregation included parishioners who would have been almost unilingually fennophones. As noted above, the relationship with the ELCIC is warmer than between certain dioceses within the Anglican Church.
Interesting. The lines and boundaries are certainly a bit blurred here and there! Not so much here in the UK, as Lutherans are a bit thin on the ground (worse luck).
The Lutheran Church here is strong in small areas of South Australia and Queensland, but weak elsewhere. It's also hard to find - there's said to be a parish in the suburb next to us. Impossible to find it on the map. There is a Finnish Lutheran Church a couple of suburbs further away, and it looks to be in an ordinary suburban house.
Yep the Lutherans in Sydney are largely ethnocentric with small ( mainly Finnish/ Latvian/ Estonian congregations. The Martin Lutherkirche in Central Sydney used to have a German speaking congregation many years ago. The church ( jammed between office buildings) has a small but fine pipe organ; an old mate used to have lessons there many years back when the organist was also the Sydney University organist.
AIUI, many of the Lutherans in the Sydney area were descendants of post-WW II refugees from East Prussia. Are you able to name the organist without breaching any confidence?
As a (rather late - I'm not as frequently aboard as I once was) observation regarding Porvoo, in Canada the Anglican Church and the Evangelical Lutheran Church are in full communion. A few years ago I was visiting my home town and was a little surprised to learn that the woman who was the Anglican priest was also conducting services at the Lutheran church (actually within walking distance of one another). I was a little surprised because the Lutheran congregation included parishioners who would have been almost unilingually fennophones. As noted above, the relationship with the ELCIC is warmer than between certain dioceses within the Anglican Church.
Interesting. The lines and boundaries are certainly a bit blurred here and there! Not so much here in the UK, as Lutherans are a bit thin on the ground (worse luck).
There are a couple of Lutheran communities in Liverpool. A Nordic church by the docks was originally for sailors etc, and a German Church. Their web sites suggest they are more focused on language based social activities than anything else
I don't know the German church but the Nordic (formerly just Swedish) one is housed in a remarkable building, with a beautiful worship area on the top floor. It's a while since I shared worship there, but the congregation are almost entirely anglophone although as Alan29 suggests they seem keen to keep the Swedish tongue in use (and to a lesser extent Norwegian and Danish). Hymns are in Swedish and I suspect the rest of the liturgy depends on the priest, who may or may not be fluent in the language (the former one was fluent in many!). Many cultural and social activities take place throughout the week.
I don't know the German church but the Nordic (formerly just Swedish) one is housed in a remarkable building, with a beautiful worship area on the top floor. It's a while since I shared worship there, but the congregation are almost entirely anglophone although as Alan29 suggests they seem keen to keep the Swedish tongue in use (and to a lesser extent Norwegian and Danish). Hymns are in Swedish and I suspect the rest of the liturgy depends on the priest, who may or may not be fluent in the language (the former one was fluent in many!). Many cultural and social activities take place throughout the week.
If I were resident in Liverpool, I'd probably try to attend that *Nordic* church - I daresay the liturgy would be familiar enough, and I can sing along in Swedish, if I have the text in front of me!
As a (rather late - I'm not as frequently aboard as I once was) observation regarding Porvoo, in Canada the Anglican Church and the Evangelical Lutheran Church are in full communion. A few years ago I was visiting my home town and was a little surprised to learn that the woman who was the Anglican priest was also conducting services at the Lutheran church (actually within walking distance of one another). I was a little surprised because the Lutheran congregation included parishioners who would have been almost unilingually fennophones. As noted above, the relationship with the ELCIC is warmer than between certain dioceses within the Anglican Church.
About ten years ago, the Bishop of Ottawa ordained de novo a Lutheran cleric who was from one of the Lutheran churches which had not entered into an agreement with the Anglican Church of Canada. If he had been from one of the dozen which had, he would not have been (re)ordained.
An unkind observer noted that if the cleric had been transferred from a non-agreement Lutheran church to an agreement one prior to his joining the Anglican church, the Holy Spirit would not have needed to have been called in.
Interesting. There are some holes in the net, obviously!
There have been such holes for a long time. In 1964-5 I was organist in the parish church of a village in Kent. In addition to the resident vicar we had an honorary assistant curate, whom we rarely saw. He lived in another parish some distance away. On one of his rare appearances in our church I got to chat with him after the service. His day job was chaplain at an independent school not far from BF's moorings. He also told me that he had been ordained as a Congrgational minister, and, on his appointment as school chaplain, accepted to minister in the Church of England without any further ceremony.
Interesting. There are some holes in the net, obviously!
This particular hole was filled by Bishop Peter-- I did not attend at the time, so do not know if the practice of thanks for previous ministry was observed-- although I strongly suspect it was. My suggestion that Lutherans be conditionally ordained has long received furious snorts and derision.
I think the united churches of North India, South India and Pakistan may constitute a similar hole, as on formation they accepted bishops but did not, I think, require Methodist or Presbyterian ministers to be re-ordained. This hole, of course, has largely closed with the passage of time.
Comments
Here's a link to the Porvoo Communion website:
https://porvoocommunion.org/
This was until late 18th century how people would participate personally in the Sunday eucharist - well ,certainly in German speaking lands.
At the time of the 'Offertory' each person would come forward and put a coin in a basket.
This replaced the bread and wine which would have been offered in previous centuries.
Gradually it became the custom to pass the basket round the congregation and have it all brought up by one person.
In the restored 'Presentation of the Gifts 'in the Roman rite bread and wine as well as other gifts are brought to the celebrant
The priest also wore a facemask whilst at the altar, and she managed to tunefully sing the whole of the Eucharistic Prayer through the mask...
It may be that Finland has been more careful than the UK for a longer period as regards Covid - the service took place in May 2022.
My thanks to all for the information regarding the most Vital Question of the shape of the chasuble...
In my experience, at least in my part of the country, if a Presbyterian church was built or last renovated prior to WWII or so, it is likely to have the pulpit-centered arrangement you describe, with the choir either above/behind the pulpit or in a rear gallery. If the church was built or renovated between the late 40s and the late 70s, it’s likely to have a divided chancel, with pulpit and lectern. If built or renovated since the early 80s or so, it’s likely to be table-centered—perhaps one level or with a “chancel” that’s only modestly elevated—with a pulpit but no lectern, and with the font in a more prominent position.
I know of quite a few churches that have been through all three stages. First Pres in Asheville, NC, can be seen as it looked after renovation in 1890 here. This is what it looked like in the 1940s, when my parents were married there. After major renovation (and enlargement) around 1951, it looked like this. And after renovation in the last decade, it now looks like this and this. (The pulpit and table usually have paraments on them.)
Regarding the Porvoo Communion, would Anglican churches in general be in Communion with the Church of Sweden, or just the Church of England, the Scottish Episcopal Church, the Church in Wales and the Church of Ireland, who are actual members of the Porvoo Communion? In the US, for example, the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) and the Episcopal Church are both in communion with the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, but that doesn’t translate into the PC(USA) and TEC being in communion with each other.
However in Finland (both Finnish and Swedish speaking) it is The Day of the Fallen Soldier, commemorating those who fell in the Winter War in the 1940s and in any other engagements where Finnish soldiers might have died.
You will see that at one point some people come to light a candle obviously to recall a fallen soldier in their family.
That is the meaning of ' De Stupades dag ' celebrated on 3rd Sunday in May.
Given that Anglican churches aren't even all sure that they're in communion with each other I'd say no. Communion does not appear to be transitive.
The list of members shows that Porvoo is mainly a European thing:
https://porvoocommunion.org/porvoo_communion/members/
Our late lamented Shipmate leo had some experience of how Lutheran and Anglican churches and clergy interacted in this country. There aren't that many Lutheran congregations here - my nearest is in London - but there are connections elsewhere. My local Diocese is twinned with that of Tallinn (Estonia), and clergy from that country have been known to preside at the Eucharist here, as authorised.
You're right - paging @kmann!
Of course youtube videos can be played back at double speed if appropriate.
Hehe...I hadn't thought of that!
https://www.vatican.va/news_services/liturgy/libretti/2023/20230105-libretto-esequie-sepoltura_pont-emerito.pdf
As a point of interest, Francis is now too gammy in the leg department to stand at the altar, so he now seems to preside from the chair, doing all the bits that don't need him to be at the altar where someone else takes over. He does this in cope and mitre. I have never seen this sharing out of the roles in any other circumstances in an RC Mass. Usually where a bishop used to preside from the throne and someone else led the Mass, the bishop was little more than an ornament and too very little active part except for the odd blessing.
You live and learn.
Thank you all for your comments on the Porvoo point. On balance, I think that Nick Tamen's point is right - Anglicans here are in communion with the other member churches of the Anglican Communion, but not from that in communion with any non-Anglican church that those members may be in communion. I'd be surprised though if we were not welcome were we to attend one of them.
It was interesting that the Tridentine Mass verse at the Offertory was sung.It has been cut from the present form of the Requiem Mass.
I was surprised how fragile Pope Francis looked.
I vaguely recall from watching Pope Francis celebrating mass at the Vatican during the pandemic that the choir would intone the offertory chant at at least a couple of them. There is no prohibition on having the offertory verse in the current Ordinary Form- there is a time where hymns or psalms can be sung at the offertory and it is one of multiple options that can be used at that time.
Maybe I saw it wrong though. Were all the hosts to be consecrated on some giant altar instead? And maybe the picture I saw was taken after consecration?
It was in the wake of the council of Trent that these two types of chasuble became almost the norm in post Tridentine baroque Catholicism.
@Gee D our friend the late Fr JP was ordained here as an Anglican priest, ministered to Australian parishes, moved to Sweden where his orders were recognised by the Swedish church, and married a Swedish lady. After quite a number of years they returned to our diocese where he once again took up parish ministry. His wife was trained and ordained in our diocese after serving part of her training in our parish and took up parish ministry on the Central Coast. They returned to Sweden to care for her elderly parents, where she took up parish ministry and prison chaplaincy in the Swedish church. Fr J has since died and Mthr L has now retired from active ministry, but their circumstances suggest to me that the links are strong despite the lack of formal signature on Porvoo.
All of which is good news (save of course for the death of Fr J) showing real ecumenism in action.
On 6th January they come to churches and take part in the liturgy.
'livestream und Uebertragungen aus dem Dom zu Klagenfurt' will show via its facebook page the visit of the Kings,over 20 of them. Most of them seem to be dressed in 'Roman style' chasubles from the cathedral's collection of old vestments. This included four adults,vested two in 'Roman' chasubles and two in Dalmatics, who sang beautiful traditional music (one of them was the Domkapellmeister/music director and of the others one was the Domorganist/cathedral organist.
The Dompfarrer/cathedral priest is an excellent preacher and first class communicator,though ,of course,it is in German.
And don't forget there are three heads in a reliquary in Cologne cathedral that are said to have belonged to the Three? Kings? I wonder if they get them out on Jan 6th.
Our Place had two Masses yesterday - 10am (the default Friday time) and 730pm - but I haven't yet heard how many attended either of them.
BTW, the Nordic Lutherans also seem to celebrate Epiphany on the 6th - there was a fair congregation in Uppsala Cathedral yesterday morning.
They didn't get them out, but they reverenced the reliquary with incense during the Pontifical Mass.
Sorry to hear that @kmann - but welcome back, anyway!
Interesting. The lines and boundaries are certainly a bit blurred here and there! Not so much here in the UK, as Lutherans are a bit thin on the ground (worse luck).
There are a couple of Lutheran communities in Liverpool. A Nordic church by the docks was originally for sailors etc, and a German Church. Their web sites suggest they are more focused on language based social activities than anything else
If I were resident in Liverpool, I'd probably try to attend that *Nordic* church - I daresay the liturgy would be familiar enough, and I can sing along in Swedish, if I have the text in front of me!
About ten years ago, the Bishop of Ottawa ordained de novo a Lutheran cleric who was from one of the Lutheran churches which had not entered into an agreement with the Anglican Church of Canada. If he had been from one of the dozen which had, he would not have been (re)ordained.
An unkind observer noted that if the cleric had been transferred from a non-agreement Lutheran church to an agreement one prior to his joining the Anglican church, the Holy Spirit would not have needed to have been called in.
There have been such holes for a long time. In 1964-5 I was organist in the parish church of a village in Kent. In addition to the resident vicar we had an honorary assistant curate, whom we rarely saw. He lived in another parish some distance away. On one of his rare appearances in our church I got to chat with him after the service. His day job was chaplain at an independent school not far from BF's moorings. He also told me that he had been ordained as a Congrgational minister, and, on his appointment as school chaplain, accepted to minister in the Church of England without any further ceremony.
This particular hole was filled by Bishop Peter-- I did not attend at the time, so do not know if the practice of thanks for previous ministry was observed-- although I strongly suspect it was. My suggestion that Lutherans be conditionally ordained has long received furious snorts and derision.
Then of course there are URC ministers who were ordained Moravian.