Just listened. I thought the melody and harmonies were lovely, but a bit laborious. And very, very formal.
A bit more up-tempo and sung by a congregation that loves to sing (where we attend now the congregation loves to sing).
Just listened. I thought the melody and harmonies were lovely, but a bit laborious. And very, very formal.
A bit more up-tempo and sung by a congregation that loves to sing (where we attend now the congregation loves to sing).
Glad you liked the melody and harmonies. It can be sung more up tempo.
One of the aspects of ship virtual life that I, er, love, is that if an aspect of life is comforting, life-affirming, accessible and familiar, especially in realms of liturgy, theology or music, someone will soon come along to have a good old rant/whinge about how terrible it is.
Think John Rutter. Think John Bell. No doubt Scripture in Song, Kendrick, Bullock ... I remember when Hans Küng was sneeringingly dismissed as "a paperback theologian" and I heard Jürgen Moltmann dismissed as "naïve."
I haven't relearned emojis shipboard yet but this attitude of unattainable superiority warrants a container vessel full of rolling eyes.
We're singing a Haughen at my pad(s) this week. And a Schutte. And a Wesley. Sorry we make faith so accessible.
Indeed, @Zappa. We all, musicians included (especially?), have our likes and our dislikes. Whenever I find that one of my dislikes is to be sung in a service, I try to look at as a reminder that It’s Not About Me. (Sometimes I’m more successful in looking at it that way than others, I’ll admit.) It might be one of my dislikes, but it may be exactly what someone else in the congregation loves, and perhaps needs to sing or hear.
This Sunday we used the Santo Mass by Marty Haugen and Susan Briel. It is put out by GIA. We used a couple of traditional Latin American hymns as well.
At the end of the service, as I was leaving the building, there was a family speaking in Ukrainian and three Africans visiting with each other in Swahili.
The most interesting thing about the congregation was it was once all Norwegian.
Indeed, @Zappa. We all, musicians included (especially?), have our likes and our dislikes. Whenever I find that one of my dislikes is to be sung in a service, I try to look at as a reminder that It’s Not About Me. (Sometimes I’m more successful in looking at it that way than others, I’ll admit.) It might be one of my dislikes, but it may be exactly what someone else in the congregation loves, and perhaps needs to sing or hear.
Musicians can be terrible snobs about music, and sometimes they can confuse liturgy with a concert.
But equally, clergy can forget that putting their latest obsession to a dirge does not a decent hymn make. Heaven forfend that music should be chosen on musical grounds.
But equally, clergy can forget that putting their latest obsession to a dirge does not a decent hymn make. Heaven forfend that music should be chosen on musical grounds.
But equally, clergy can forget that putting their latest obsession to a dirge does not a decent hymn make. Heaven forfend that music should be chosen on musical grounds.
Surely it should be chosen on liturgical grounds.
Indeed, which can incorporate musical considerations, and arguably should.
My beef is with clerical trainset syndrome. No church/congregation belongs to its clergy to be victims of their whims. Neither, of course, do they belong to their organist, particularly if they have no liturgical training or sensitivity. But then you get into a whole new set of issues about resources to develop liturgical knowledge and sensitivity. It's a minefield.
But equally, clergy can forget that putting their latest obsession to a dirge does not a decent hymn make. Heaven forfend that music should be chosen on musical grounds.
Surely it should be chosen on liturgical grounds.
Indeed, which can incorporate musical considerations, and arguably should.
My beef is with clerical trainset syndrome. No church/congregation belongs to its clergy to be victims of their whims. Neither, of course, do they belong to their organist, particularly if they have no liturgical training or sensitivity. But then you get into a whole new set of issues about resources to develop liturgical knowledge and sensitivity. It's a minefield.
Elementary Rule of Liturgical Usage #3 in Aiden Kavanaugh’s Elements of Rite is “The liturgical minister must serve the assembly.” In commentary on that rule, he says that the liturgical minister
presides not over the assembly but within it; he does not lead it but serves it; he is the speaker of its house of worship. His decisions must never be gratuitous. They may sometimes be wrong, but they must also be steeped in a sense of reverent pastoral responsibility that is completely infused with the assembly and its tradition of liturgical worship. The sort of ministerial discretion this requires is a high art more important than any rubric ever written—just as the artistry of a good cook is more important to human dining than any recipe ever written.
I know many clergy and church musicians who understand this responsibility and take it very seriously. But I also know there are many others who have yet to learn that they’re not there to mold the worshipping assembly into their own image and after their likings.
That is an excellent post. There is great friction among RC music ministers in the USA between those of a more conservative mind and those of a more modern attitude. Part of the dividing line seems to be between those who are paid professional and trained musicians (who seem to aim for a "we will make lovely music while you sit, listen and marvel" ) and those, many of whom are also trained and paid, who aim for congregational participation. There seems to be little charity in their exchanges at times.
I currently serve part time as the parish musician for a RCC. This Advent we are changing our pew hymnal from Breaking Bread to Source & Summit. Will be interesting to ride the wave of that adjustment.
I recall a previous priest who - on occasions when non-church goers who they perceived as "the elite" were likely to be present (e.g. a civic service) - made a point of choosing modern songs that the visiting people didn't know, couldn't join in with and wouldn't like. I think this was in the spirit of "this'll show 'em". I could completely see the point about not giving visiting elites the figurative best seats in the synagogue etc etc but it also seemed a little wrong headed.
Absolutely; said priest likely ordained post 1970. Mind you an old school priest might have gone for “ Faith of our Fathers” or “ Full in the panting heart of Rome” or other post-Catholic Revival crap just to bore it up the Protestants ( small p for trads)
Absolutely; said priest likely ordained post 1970. Mind you an old school priest might have gone for “ Faith of our Fathers” or “ Full in the panting heart of Rome” or other post-Catholic Revival crap just to bore it up the Protestants ( small p for trads)
Nah, much better off with Marian stuff if you really want to freak out Protestants.
Absolutely; said priest likely ordained post 1970. Mind you an old school priest might have gone for “ Faith of our Fathers” or “ Full in the panting heart of Rome” or other post-Catholic Revival crap just to bore it up the Protestants ( small p for trads)
This Protestant grew up on “Faith of Our Fathers.”
Newman's *Firmly I believe and truly* is in our default hymnbook (Complete Anglican Hymns Old And New ), but I have always refused to sing verse 4:
4 And I hold in veneration,
for the love of him alone,
Holy Church as his creation, and her teachings as his own.
My italics.
A former churchwarden, who accepted Mary as Co-Redemptrix, once or twice tried to get us to sing really idolatrous Marian ditties, but was always overruled.
"Her" there refers to the church, rather than the BVM, does it not? I mean given some of the shite the church has taught I can understand uneasiness about that too but wasn't sure if that was what you meant.
Nick T. I think there is a hymn called 'Faith of our Fathers' which is NOT the one being referred to here.
The 19th Century Catholic revival hymn starts 'Faith of our Fathers, living still,in spite of dungeon,fire and sword' and ends
'Faith of our Fathers,holy Faith, we will be true to thee till death'
"Her" there refers to the church, rather than the BVM, does it not? I mean given some of the shite the church has taught I can understand uneasiness about that too but wasn't sure if that was what you meant.
Yes, you're right - Newman was indeed referring to the Church. I then mentioned the BVM simply because Sojourner's comment about Mariolatry reminded me of our former churchwarden.
Nick T. I think there is a hymn called 'Faith of our Fathers' which is NOT the one being referred to here.
The 19th Century Catholic revival hymn starts 'Faith of our Fathers, living still,in spite of dungeon,fire and sword' and ends
'Faith of our Fathers,holy Faith, we will be true to thee till death'
Really, @Alan29? We have endless Marian hymns in Sotho and Zulu (Ahe Maria) and one from the Mozambican Portuguese/Lusitano that is all about Maria as the 'shining gate of heaven' conferring forgiveness on the deserving. Sung with slow gusto.
Pratchett's contention was that hate was passionate, a mirror to love that held the same quality of attraction, whereas loathing was a repelling force, a not-wanting-to-be-close to rather than a be-angry-at.
(Is there a particularly dire example I should look for? A bottom three anti-hits, as it were?)
No. Marty Haugen has written some great stuff. (But most of it would have come out after The Hymnal 1982 was published, I think.) I can’t think of anything by him I’d classify as “dire.”
This is more a thread of confusing “I don’t like” with “is horrible.”
(Is there a particularly dire example I should look for? A bottom three anti-hits, as it were?)
No. Marty Haugen has written some great stuff. (But most of it would have come out after The Hymnal 1982 was published, I think.) I can’t think of anything by him I’d classify as “dire.”
This is more a thread of confusing “I don’t like” with “is horrible.”
Oh, okay. No worries, then. My own Episcopal church (the denomination, I mean) may have an array of hymns like that too, but not in the 1982 Hymnal, which tends to older, more traditional stuff. Maybe stuff used for youth groups? Maybe some sort of alternative hymnal...
(Is there a particularly dire example I should look for? A bottom three anti-hits, as it were?)
No. Marty Haugen has written some great stuff. (But most of it would have come out after The Hymnal 1982 was published, I think.) I can’t think of anything by him I’d classify as “dire.”
This is more a thread of confusing “I don’t like” with “is horrible.”
Oh, okay. No worries, then. My own Episcopal church (the denomination, I mean) may have an array of hymns like that too, but not in the 1982 Hymnal, which tends to older, more traditional stuff. Maybe stuff used for youth groups? Maybe some sort of alternative hymnal...
No, not youth group stuff, but without looking, I can almost guarantee his hymns are in supplemental hymnals that the Episcopal Church has published.
(Is there a particularly dire example I should look for? A bottom three anti-hits, as it were?)
No. Marty Haugen has written some great stuff. (But most of it would have come out after The Hymnal 1982 was published, I think.) I can’t think of anything by him I’d classify as “dire.”
This is more a thread of confusing “I don’t like” with “is horrible.”
Oh, okay. No worries, then. My own Episcopal church (the denomination, I mean) may have an array of hymns like that too, but not in the 1982 Hymnal, which tends to older, more traditional stuff. Maybe stuff used for youth groups? Maybe some sort of alternative hymnal...
No, not youth group stuff, but without looking, I can almost guarantee his hymns are in supplemental hymnals that the Episcopal Church has published.
Supplemental! That’s the word I couldn’t remember… Usually with a brightly colored cover…
Comments
A bit more up-tempo and sung by a congregation that loves to sing (where we attend now the congregation loves to sing).
Glad you liked the melody and harmonies. It can be sung more up tempo.
Which tune? If sung to the Gibbons tune its fine but the Monk Unde et memoria is frightful.
Unde is the terrible one I had in mind. Gibbons' Song 1 is indeed far better.
Having reminded myself that I do, in fact, know Song 1 I'm happy with either. Though I'm now feeling a bit Millwall about Unde et memoria.
Think John Rutter. Think John Bell. No doubt Scripture in Song, Kendrick, Bullock ... I remember when Hans Küng was sneeringingly dismissed as "a paperback theologian" and I heard Jürgen Moltmann dismissed as "naïve."
I haven't relearned emojis shipboard yet but this attitude of unattainable superiority warrants a container vessel full of rolling eyes.
We're singing a Haughen at my pad(s) this week. And a Schutte. And a Wesley. Sorry we make faith so accessible.
At the end of the service, as I was leaving the building, there was a family speaking in Ukrainian and three Africans visiting with each other in Swahili.
The most interesting thing about the congregation was it was once all Norwegian.
I love my congregation.
Musicians can be terrible snobs about music, and sometimes they can confuse liturgy with a concert.
Surely it should be chosen on liturgical grounds.
No seriously, the points about accessibility, singability and so on are well made.
My OP was based on particular settings of Haugen I'd seen online. I can think of settings of music I like which set my teeth on edge too.
Indeed, which can incorporate musical considerations, and arguably should.
My beef is with clerical trainset syndrome. No church/congregation belongs to its clergy to be victims of their whims. Neither, of course, do they belong to their organist, particularly if they have no liturgical training or sensitivity. But then you get into a whole new set of issues about resources to develop liturgical knowledge and sensitivity. It's a minefield.
Nah, much better off with Marian stuff if you really want to freak out Protestants.
Consider me duly educated.
<<goes off to Google "Mariolatrist">>
4 And I hold in veneration,
for the love of him alone,
Holy Church as his creation,
and her teachings as his own.
My italics.
A former churchwarden, who accepted Mary as Co-Redemptrix, once or twice tried to get us to sing really idolatrous Marian ditties, but was always overruled.
The 19th Century Catholic revival hymn starts 'Faith of our Fathers, living still,in spite of dungeon,fire and sword' and ends
'Faith of our Fathers,holy Faith, we will be true to thee till death'
Yes, you're right - Newman was indeed referring to the Church. I then mentioned the BVM simply because Sojourner's comment about Mariolatry reminded me of our former churchwarden.
Happily they are never done at our place.
There is a current FB discussion about the un-notated pause on "pray foooooor all sinners, pray for me."
And people are complaining about Marty Haugen ?
I think what we're seeing here is the difference between hate and loathing (with reference to the Pratchettian discourse on the same).
Something by Liberation Suite?
("We Remember" didn't seem very much my thing. I would definitely prefer more traditional stuff.)
This is more a thread of confusing “I don’t like” with “is horrible.”
Oh, okay. No worries, then. My own Episcopal church (the denomination, I mean) may have an array of hymns like that too, but not in the 1982 Hymnal, which tends to older, more traditional stuff. Maybe stuff used for youth groups? Maybe some sort of alternative hymnal...
(I hope I got the links right; I’m multitasking, which can lead to mistakes.)
Supplemental! That’s the word I couldn’t remember… Usually with a brightly colored cover…
Well they don’t seem horrible or anything but not something I would actively seek out to listen to.
They won’t be everyone’s cup of tea, of course; no style of music is.