I read in "Backtrack" that, when the "Elizabethan" non-stop London-Edinburgh service was running in the 1950s, the A4s used each summer were carefully chosen and the middle big end oil needed refilling after each trip. The Stanier "Coronations" used on the "Caledonian" were simply the next loco available and lubrication was not a problem.
The A4s must have been kept in pretty good shape. We used to see the same ones on the Elizabethan day after day, looking and sounding beautiful. I am forgetting which ones now, but I think there were Quicksilver and Kingfisher. We all knew (or believed!) it was the fastest train and the longest non-stop train in the world. It was an exciting time.
And unusually, the same engine heads the train all the way through.
Yes. I was watching "Britain's Railways from the Air" on the Ffestiniog Railway the other day. On the whole it was quite good - except that at one point "Merddin Emrys" suddenly transmogrified into "James Spooner" - to which name our attention was drawn. Also the aerial view of the train at Minffordd was of a completely different train.
There were other "quirks" too, and they missed a trick by talking about, but not showing, a gravity slate train.
I thought I might join you to drop in that my wife and I had a nice afternoon on the East Lancs today. We just missed a steam loco on the way to the fleshpots (OK, charity shops and then Lidl) of Rawtenstall, so went up behind a diesel (D5053, I took a note...oh dear) a bit later. Then back behind the City of Wells - and then home on a long tram ride on a hot day. A nice time was had by all, and my Irish wife now knows how to get out of 'slam door' carriages, which was a funny thing to have to show someone.
Think of it as a folk ballad... I just missed the days of the Elizabethan, but remember well the discomfort and tedium of the awful, cramped, rough-riding Mk 1 compartment carriages of the Talisman from Hitchin, on jointed track, arriving feeling wrecked when finally arrived in Aberdeen for my first year at University. Good grief - that was 60 years ago all but a few months!
The side views in the film are worth looking at carefully. You see exactly how Sir Nigel Gresley wanted his engines to be driven: full regulator and a short cut-off.
That's an interesting comment, as so many people nostalgically reminisce about the delights of Mk 1 carriages. To be fair, some were better than others, but the riding at speed was known to be bad, which is why some were retrofitted with Commonwealth bogies. The Blue Pullmans and the Brighton Belle were also rough riders. Mind you, there was some very bad lurching on a recent Class 800 run to London, especially around Twyford and a bit further. It had my wife genuinely worried, while I kept thinking "what about the yaw dampers?" - as one does.
Two points: the "Elizabethan" in the film still has, I think, late LNER Thompson stock. Conversely the "Talisman" was the usual service which used the prototype XP64 stock.
And yes, trains were a lot slower in those days - although, when I was at University, Waterloo to Southampton was accomplished in 70 minutes, non-sop, hourly. There's nothing as quick today!
That was post-electrification of the LSWR main line, I assume?
Mind you, the Bulleid Pacifics could go like the wind, if they were in a good mood. I wonder what their fastest time was for the sprint to Southampton? I daresay they had to stop somewhere, for water if not for passengers...
That was post-electrification of the LSWR main line, I assume?
Indeed so - early 1970s. The REPs were as powerful as a "Deltic" and of course they didn't have the weight of a loco to contend with.
Having said that, my fastest run was with a 4-REP and a single 4-TC on a semi-fast one Sunday afternoon. We were up to over 100 at Brookwood (after a station stop at Woking); the maximum was 108 near Winchester Junction - I was worried we wouldn't make the station stop, but we did! The Bulleids got up to the "ton" during their last weeks of operation, but that was before my time.
I recently went to Norwich and was amazed by the acceleration of the 745s from station stops.
Two points: the "Elizabethan" in the film still has, I think, late LNER Thompson stock. Conversely the "Talisman" was the usual service which used the prototype XP64 stock.
I think it was just the northbound 16:00 Talisman that had the XP64 set when it was new, and presumably it was on the southbound 08:00 from Waverley the following morning. I can't remember how long that lasted, but that train with its shiny green Deltic hurtling past our vantage point by the track made for an enduring memory.
Wow! Although it was D1733 (Brush Type 4) which was painted to match the XP64 stock.
I didn't know (or had forgotten...) that. I did manage to catch a fuzzy picture of the first run with my Brownie box camera after cycling like mad after school to get to Cadwell. It was a special time. Nothing could be as exciting as a Deltic accelerating north from Hitchin at full throttle with 36 cylinders turning diesel fuel into noise.
I once (aged about 13) had a very short ride in a Deltic - D9009 Alycidon which still exists - along the old Platform 10 at King's Cross. We also looked into the engine room: unbelievably full and cramped.
About 15 years ago we holidayed in Romania. Rather to my surprise, our train from Sibiu to Timisoara was diesel hauled. What's interesting is that the loco was one of the numerous 060DA class - which IMO is what the Class 44 "Peaks" should have been like (same Sulzer engine, lighter so no idling wheels, Swiss styling).
We didn't go particularly fast so I sadly didn't hear the roar of an accelerating "Peak" blasting out of Elstree Tunnel on the MML.
... Nothing could be as exciting as a Deltic accelerating north from Hitchin at full throttle with 36 cylinders turning diesel fuel into noise.
Exciting yes, but I would not go quite as far as 'nothing ... as'. Being in a train descending from Stoke north of Peterborough and headed by an A4 at 112 mph was quite exciting. And when it came to noise and effort, so too were northbound expresses going hard uphill north of Rowsley towards Peak Forest behind a Jubilee or in later years a Scot
Allegedly Bill Hoole wanted to run faster but the Civil Engineer wasn't keen, nor was the Publicity Department who realised that the new EE Type 40 diesels could only do 90mph! (I enjoyed a ride on the northbound "Master Cutler" behind one of them, and the steward informed us that we were "doing 90" but I'm not sure where).
Bill Hoole retired a few weeks after that run and joined the Festiniog Railway (only one "f" in those days) and became "Prince's" regular driver - 25mph maximum!
Allegedly Bill Hoole wanted to run faster but the Civil Engineer wasn't keen, nor was the Publicity Department who realised that the new EE Type 40 diesels could only do 90mph! (I enjoyed a ride on the northbound "Master Cutler" behind one of them, and the steward informed us that we were "doing 90" but I'm not sure where).
Bill Hoole retired a few weeks after that run and joined the Festiniog Railway (only one "f" in those days) and became "Prince's" regular driver - 25mph maximum!
The 40’s always seemed like honest plodders to me, while the Deltics were awesome and a bit frightening! (Especially stood at Newark Northgate watching, hearing and feeling one go past).
The 40’s always seemed like honest plodders to me, while the Deltics were awesome and a bit frightening!
Not surprising: 2000hp/133 tons vs 3300hp/99 tons! We can thank Gerry Fiennes for the Deltics (although he'd have liked more). I don't know who came up with the "Deltic + 8" formula which speeded up the service considerably.
Our Class 45 Peak's weighed as much as a 40 but had an extra 500hp which made them more sprightly. They were especially in their element on the MML after the WCML electrification to Liverpool and Manchester was complete, as trains which had loaded to 10 or more coaches shrank to 5 or 6 (not for long though, as the Midland route to Manchester closed two years later).
I’ve just checked the numbers and the 22 Deltics replaced 55 steam locomotives, mostly on an East Coast Main Line, thanks to the inherent efficiency of Diesel engines.
They were really made for that job and while they demanded careful maintenance, they can’t have been as fussy as A4s run fast.
The Class 40 weren't highflyers, 'tis true, but when they first appeared they created quite a sensation. If I remember right D200 was on the GE section, but I do remember very clearly that D201 was on the GN Kings Cross - Cambridge run for some time when it was newly out of the box. That was in 1958 just before I had my Brownie box camera, so I don't think I have any pictures of it. After the endless B1s, some B17s and B2s and the uninspiring Brush Type 2s, they really did excite us, especially when they moved over to ECML service. I also remember watching them picking up water from the Stevenage troughs, which seemed funny at the time.
I’ve just checked the numbers and the 22 Deltics replaced 55 steam locomotives, mostly on an East Coast Main Line, thanks to the inherent efficiency of Diesel engines.
They were really made for that job and while they demanded careful maintenance, they can’t have been as fussy as A4s run fast.
It is availability rather than efficiency that makes the difference. Provided they are well maintained, diesels require less, or less frequent, routine attention. than steam engines. They do not need to be coaled and watered, and do not have fires that get full of ash and clinker that have to be raked out. You just switch them on and drive them.
In the early and transition years, though, many diesels had a very poor reputation for reliability, and when they fail, that is it. They can't limp their trains home.
Yes, the D200 series first appeared in 1958. I was at Peterborough North in April 1958 when a brand new and immaculate D201 came through mid-afternoon, running light from, I assume, Doncaster to Kings Cross.
Comments
The A4s must have been kept in pretty good shape. We used to see the same ones on the Elizabethan day after day, looking and sounding beautiful. I am forgetting which ones now, but I think there were Quicksilver and Kingfisher. We all knew (or believed!) it was the fastest train and the longest non-stop train in the world. It was an exciting time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghkqGfUy4xs
Pure nostalgia - enjoy!
The "poetry" is awful!
Here is a much more famous one from 1936 with contributions from a genuine composer and a genuine poet.
There were other "quirks" too, and they missed a trick by talking about, but not showing, a gravity slate train.
Think of it as a folk ballad... I just missed the days of the Elizabethan, but remember well the discomfort and tedium of the awful, cramped, rough-riding Mk 1 compartment carriages of the Talisman from Hitchin, on jointed track, arriving feeling wrecked when finally arrived in Aberdeen for my first year at University. Good grief - that was 60 years ago all but a few months!
The side views in the film are worth looking at carefully. You see exactly how Sir Nigel Gresley wanted his engines to be driven: full regulator and a short cut-off.
Two points: the "Elizabethan" in the film still has, I think, late LNER Thompson stock. Conversely the "Talisman" was the usual service which used the prototype XP64 stock.
And yes, trains were a lot slower in those days - although, when I was at University, Waterloo to Southampton was accomplished in 70 minutes, non-sop, hourly. There's nothing as quick today!
Mind you, the Bulleid Pacifics could go like the wind, if they were in a good mood. I wonder what their fastest time was for the sprint to Southampton? I daresay they had to stop somewhere, for water if not for passengers...
Having said that, my fastest run was with a 4-REP and a single 4-TC on a semi-fast one Sunday afternoon. We were up to over 100 at Brookwood (after a station stop at Woking); the maximum was 108 near Winchester Junction - I was worried we wouldn't make the station stop, but we did! The Bulleids got up to the "ton" during their last weeks of operation, but that was before my time.
I recently went to Norwich and was amazed by the acceleration of the 745s from station stops.
I didn't know (or had forgotten...) that. I did manage to catch a fuzzy picture of the first run with my Brownie box camera after cycling like mad after school to get to Cadwell. It was a special time. Nothing could be as exciting as a Deltic accelerating north from Hitchin at full throttle with 36 cylinders turning diesel fuel into noise.
Or, I suppose, even more impressive...
We didn't go particularly fast so I sadly didn't hear the roar of an accelerating "Peak" blasting out of Elstree Tunnel on the MML.
Here is an account of what it was like to reach and sustain 200 kph on the German Class 05:http://www.germansteam.co.uk/FastestLoco/fastestloco.html
We reached 100 at two other points during the day, and going north went over the top of Stoke at 82.
Bill Hoole retired a few weeks after that run and joined the Festiniog Railway (only one "f" in those days) and became "Prince's" regular driver - 25mph maximum!
The 40’s always seemed like honest plodders to me, while the Deltics were awesome and a bit frightening! (Especially stood at Newark Northgate watching, hearing and feeling one go past).
Our Class 45 Peak's weighed as much as a 40 but had an extra 500hp which made them more sprightly. They were especially in their element on the MML after the WCML electrification to Liverpool and Manchester was complete, as trains which had loaded to 10 or more coaches shrank to 5 or 6 (not for long though, as the Midland route to Manchester closed two years later).
They were really made for that job and while they demanded careful maintenance, they can’t have been as fussy as A4s run fast.
In the early and transition years, though, many diesels had a very poor reputation for reliability, and when they fail, that is it. They can't limp their trains home.
Yes, the D200 series first appeared in 1958. I was at Peterborough North in April 1958 when a brand new and immaculate D201 came through mid-afternoon, running light from, I assume, Doncaster to Kings Cross.
Waiting for my delayed school train one foggy winter morning, I was very surprised to see D384 on a northbound Midland main line express.