Bickerin' Beavers: Canadian Politics MMXXIV

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  • stetson wrote: »
    Marsupial wrote: »
    A bit like Robert Fulford, whose politics hardened in a similar way late in his career (or possibly “have hardened” - I don’t know if he is still active).

    My 1980s social-studies textbook had an editorial by Fulford from the time of the October Crisis, attacking Trudeau's suspension of civil liberties. Which was actually a fairly courageous stand to take at the time.

    But yeah, by the time he got to the Post in the late 90s, he was pretty obviously situated on the right. Maybe not the full aging-curmudgeon archetype that many others embodied, but the same general outlook.

    I'm in my 40's now and I have a steady job. I have to be wary the siren songs of the Conservative Party; their dogwhistles are pitched directly at my ear.
  • TrudyTrudy Shipmate, Host Emeritus
    stetson wrote: »
    ...I have been going to Tim Hortons since I had a dime for a donut and little feet to take me there.

    Good God. Further research indicates that Tim Hortons didn't open in Newfoundland until 1977.

    True that. I was 12 before I went to Tim's, and Rex was a lot older than I.
  • MarsupialMarsupial Shipmate
    Tim’s tangent: I was in downtown Hamilton for work last week, which was an opportunity for a trip down memory lane as my great-grandparents lived in a house downtown on King St West and my first Timmies experience (would be early-mid-seventies) was the Timmies a few blocks east. Both are still there, basically, though the dentist’s office at the front of the house where my great-grandparents lived has become a computer repair shop and I think the Tim’s may have been torn down and rebuilt.
  • The Ottawa St. East l9cation is in fact the first Tim's ever.
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    A decade or so back, I saw a brochure from a Big 5 bank, advising their clients to get better value for their savings. The opening lines enumerated things that Canadians like, with the next paragraph being a discussion of how they DON'T seem to like saving money.

    One of the things listed as a Canadian favorite, along with hockey etc, was "double doubles". I think that was the only time I've seen a corporation promote another corporation's product, outside of a formal tie-in.
  • MarsupialMarsupial Shipmate
    The Ottawa St. East l9cation is in fact the first Tim's ever.

    Interesting. I think I knew it was somewhere in Hamilton, but had no idea where.
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    According to wiki, the first Tim Hortons restaurant was a burger joint in North Bay, and the first donut shop was in Hamilton.
  • I think that the last time I was in a Tim Horton's was the last time I drove the 401, and that would have been in Paul Martin's time. It was once reliable for good road coffee but I am told that Macdonald's provides an improved product. Another reason to keep with Via.

    A friend who served on the HMCS Dromedary at Kandahar told me that her comrades loved Tim's but that she had become addicted to Afghan coffee, which she still prepares in a little brass ibrik now that she is ashore.
  • Surely Kandahar was HMCS Bactria as Afghanistan is in the Bactrian* Camel's native range.

    *Bactrian Camels have two humps.
  • She said HMCS Dromedary. Never argue with a woman who knows how to work an automatic weapon.
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    edited May 2024
    stetson wrote: »
    And a few days ago, Melanie Joly said Canada stands by the claim of Indian involvement, and(or but?) also mentioned that the matter is still under investigation by the mounties.

    The Guardian has an article up called

    India, gangs...or both?

    Who is behind the assassination of Canadian Sikhs?

    As you can probably guess, the implied answer is "both", but the evidence presented is rather slight. Basically, amounts to pointing out that India has used criminal gangs to take out Sikh militants elsewhere.
  • MarsupialMarsupial Shipmate
    Sampling VIA coffee this afternoon and it’s not too bad. That is, if the 1940s-era rail cars that they are still (!) using don’t spill it on your lap (which in fairness, it didn’t).
  • MarsupialMarsupial Shipmate
    On the other hand, the wifi, while not literally from the 1940s, leaves something to be desired…
  • Marsupial wrote: »
    On the other hand, the wifi, while not literally from the 1940s, leaves something to be desired…

    As the intercity buses have been relegated to the more savage period of competition with all of the defects and few of the advantages of competition (those whose size permits them to enjoy budget airlines will perhaps disagree), Via is more and more attractive.

    Marsupial is correct about the coffee and when I take Via 1, there is a good chance that the meal will be acceptable (and the wine and cognac does help one nap). With advance purchase and a senior's fare, Toronto-Ottawa can be $146. For me the real advantage is advance boarding and avoiding 45 minutes in line in Union Station. About a quarter of the time, the train is steady enough for writing legibly. In any case one can use the time profitably by memorizing the week's collect in French or the local First Nations language.

    As far as the killing is concerned, in faroff days during the Greek colonels' régime, a particular criminal gang in Toronto was employed beat up opponents. I'm now retired and out of the information loop, but some patterns never go away.
  • stetson wrote: »
    stetson wrote: »
    And a few days ago, Melanie Joly said Canada stands by the claim of Indian involvement, and(or but?) also mentioned that the matter is still under investigation by the mounties.

    The Guardian has an article up called

    India, gangs...or both?

    Who is behind the assassination of Canadian Sikhs?

    As you can probably guess, the implied answer is "both", but the evidence presented is rather slight. Basically, amounts to pointing out that India has used criminal gangs to take out Sikh militants elsewhere.

    I will wager that Canada is in classic intelligence conundrum: the information Ottawa holds implicating India came from the Five Eyes network via the Communications Security Establishment and the sources cannot be therefor be revealed.
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    edited May 2024
    stetson wrote: »
    All NN needs to do is say at least one positive thing about unions every day and he'll do OK.

    Just saw that Gil McGowan is running for the leadership as well. I'm gonna assume that, right now, he's got more default labour support than Nenshi.

    McGowan dropped out a few days ago. I assume it's a Nenshi coronation from here on in.
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    stetson wrote: »
    I remember the presentation John Ibbotson gave when he coined that term.

    Where did he give the presentation?

    One discrepancy I found interesting in his book was that, in his list of Laurentians, he mentioned George Grant, but not Diefenbaker, even though Grant's most iconic work is a defense of John Diefenbaker. I'm assuming Dief's indifference to Quebec's aspirations within Canada might be one thing that precluded him from the canon. IIRC, both Pierre Trudeau and his nemesis Rene Levesque were included, presumably in part due to both caring about the future of the "French fact" in Canada.

    I just browsed through that same section of The Big Shift at my local thrift shop. Turns out, Ibbitson DOES mention Diefenbaker, and posits the Avro Arrow as the reason for his low estimation by the Laurentian elites, and hence exclusion from Ibbitson's list.

    Now, believe me, I KNOW how worked up people can get about the Arrow. But I do question if that's the sole reason Dief would be rejected by centre-left opinion in Canada.
  • I have almost finished Ibbotson's book (The Duel) about Diefenbaker and Pearson. I suspect that the reason why the 1960s Diefenbaker had lost wider support was due to perceived inefficiency and chaos at the deicsion-making level combined with a Pearsonian offer of more professionalism in public administration. When joined to a shifting inclination to a more sophisticated presentation, it was perhaps inevitable.

    I do wish that Ibbotson would shift from his preference for one-word sentences at the end of a paragraph. Summary. One-word summary. A Conclusion. At the close. It's patronizing in his columns and annoying in his books. I have read essays of his which are far better writing. Really. Annoying.
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    edited June 2024
    I have almost finished Ibbotson's book (The Duel) about Diefenbaker and Pearson. I suspect that the reason why the 1960s Diefenbaker had lost wider support was due to perceived inefficiency and chaos at the deicsion-making level combined with a Pearsonian offer of more professionalism in public administration. When joined to a shifting inclination to a more sophisticated presentation, it was perhaps inevitable.

    Yes. As far back as Newman's Renegade In Power, published less than a year after Dief left 24 Sussex, you get that impression of inefficiency and chaotic decision-making throughout the government.

    Granted, Renegade In Power possibly contributed a bit to that perception in the long-term, fairly or otherwise.

    I do wish that Ibbotson would shift from his preference for one-word sentences at the end of a paragraph. Summary. One-word summary. A Conclusion. At the close. It's patronizing in his columns and annoying in his books. I have read essays of his which are far better writing. Really. Annoying.

    I hadn't noticed that quirk in his writing. Twee.
  • edited June 2024
    I shall have to read this book, though I think Ibbotson is in general twee.

    I once met the son of Diefenbaker's whip. Some of this information comes from him.

    1) Diefenbaker pioneered the populist rush Canadian politics. He lost when the incoherence of that tactic caught up with him.

    2) His 'rush' was against a Liberal Party that had grown nakedly corporatist (see C. D. Howe) and had failed to deliver a federal welfare state promised since the end of WWII.

    3) In power, however, he was personally indecisive. Great rhetorician, terrible decisionmaker. He was good on rights but good at little else. He did, however, enfranchise Indigenous Canadians, thus making an indigenous vote a Tory vote for the next 30 years. (Will provide references if desired). He also gets one-third of the credit for Medicare.

    4) The Flag debate was the nail in Dief's political coffin. He was on the wrong side of history and the wrong side of Quebec and paid very high price for that. He went from viable to unelectable with that one.
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    The Flag debate was the nail in Dief's political coffin. He was on the wrong side of history and the wrong side of Quebec and paid very high price for that. He went from viable to unelectable with that one.

    Diefenbaker was totally out-of-touch with political reality on issues related to Quebec and French Canadians. YouTube has an old NFB doc about the October Crisis, with footage of Dief telling a reporter that left-wing violence in Quebec was a result of "revolutionaries coming up from America" and being allowed to enter Canada by the Liberals. (In fact, the FLQ's bombings started in March of 1963, months before 11/22/63, ie. the earliest plausible beginning of the "political 1960s" in the USA.)

    That said, at least once during the whole Meech/Charlottetown fiasco, Pierre Trudeau cited Dief as an inspiration for treating Quebec's complaints and aspirations as things that could be absolutely ignored. I'm assuming he knew how little admiration there was for his constitutional mentor among the Quebecois by that point.
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    He was good on rights but good at little else.

    I've often speculated that his support for a BoR was related to his law-practice leaning more heavily toward criminal law. I think most politicians with a legal background tended to be more focused on corporate, like Mackenzie King and Mulroney.
  • Louis St. Laurent was a noted corporate lawyer before politics. Dief was unusual in being a criminal lawyer and has been noted in histories for that, even though his Bill of Rights was much ado about nothing.
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    Louis St. Laurent was a noted corporate lawyer before politics. Dief was unusual in being a criminal lawyer and has been noted in histories for that, even though his Bill of Rights was much ado about nothing.

    I once heard a doctrinaire red-tory nationalist(of the "WE BURNED THE WHITE HOUSE!!" variety) try to convince a bunch of more orthodox Canadian leftists that if John Diefenbaker were still alive at the time of the discussion, he'd be supporting marriage-equality, because of course his commitment to human-rights was well-known.

    Whereas I'm pretty sure I read somewhere credible that Diefenbaker opposed Trudeau's legalization of homosexuality in 1969. So he wasn't even redeemable by the usual plea of "Not bad for the standards of his time".

    As far as I know, Dief's Bill Of Rights didn't do much to persuade rural and small-town conservatives that Trudeau's Charter was following a moderate and acceptable precedent.

    Two seemingly off-brand things I know about Dief's funeral...

    His coffin was draped in the proper flag of Canada. Understandable, I guess, since if even if protocol would have allowed the loyalist standard, it would nevertheless have had a disruptive effect on the mood.

    His coffin was carried out to The Battle Hymn Of The Republic. Granting I could see that having some Baptist appeal, I still woulda thought the political overtones, heck, the bloody name alone, would have been deemed highly inappropriate.

    (I have actually wondered if the journalist who wrote that wasn't confusing the Battle Hymn with Onward Christian Soldiers.)
  • MarsupialMarsupial Shipmate
    For what it’s worth, I recall the former being sung at the Cathedral in Ottawa (though not specifically at Dief’s funeral), but not the latter.
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    Marsupial wrote: »
    For what it’s worth, I recall the former being sung at the Cathedral in Ottawa (though not specifically at Dief’s funeral), but not the latter.

    Anglican?
  • MarsupialMarsupial Shipmate
    Yup. Where the state funeral was held.
  • stetson wrote: »
    Marsupial wrote: »
    For what it’s worth, I recall the former being sung at the Cathedral in Ottawa (though not specifically at Dief’s funeral), but not the latter.

    Anglican?

    Normally non-RC state funerals are held at Christchurch Cathedral. MW archaeologists might find my report of (Ukrainian Orthodox) deceased Governor General Ray Hnatyshyn's state funeral, which was held there, Archbishop Yurij of Winnipeg presiding.

    The only exception I know of was Jack Layton's state funeral, held in Roy Thomson Hall in Toronto.
  • stetson wrote: »
    Marsupial wrote: »
    For what it’s worth, I recall the former being sung at the Cathedral in Ottawa (though not specifically at Dief’s funeral), but not the latter.

    Anglican?

    Normally non-RC state funerals are held at Christchurch Cathedral. MW archaeologists might find my report of (Ukrainian Orthodox) deceased Governor General Ray Hnatyshyn's state funeral, which was held there, Archbishop Yurij of Winnipeg presiding.

    The only exception I know of was Jack Layton's state funeral, held in Roy Thomson Hall in Toronto.

    I am out to lunch on this-- state funerals have been held in all sorts of places: Roméo LeBlanc's in Saint Thomas', Memramcook , John Turner's at Saint Michael's Cathedral Basilica in Toronto, Jim Flaherty's at Saint James' Cathedral in Toronto, and Ed Broadbent's at Carleton Dominion-Chalmers Centre (formerly Dominion-Chalmers United Church of Canada) in Ottawa, Brian Mulroney's at Notre-Dame Basilica of Montréal (same as Pierre Trudeau's).
  • edited June 2024
    It still is Dominion-Chalmers. The congregation still has the right to use the space while relieving itself of building expenses.
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    It still is Dominion-Chalmers. The congregation still has the right to use the space while relieving itself of building expenses.

    So Dominion-Chalmers is a church that got sold and converted into a venue-for-rent?
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    Notre-Dame Basilica of Montréal (same as Pierre Trudeau's).

    "Friends. Romans. Countrymen."
  • stetson wrote: »
    It still is Dominion-Chalmers. The congregation still has the right to use the space while relieving itself of building expenses.

    So Dominion-Chalmers is a church that got sold and converted into a venue-for-rent?

    Cool! Carleton University purchased it as a resource for the University and as a venue-for-rent. IMHO, more of our congregations should be doing that with our buildings. Buildings are becoming more burdensome, and because of financial constraints, congregations get caught in cycles of deferred maintenance which only make matters worse.
  • It still is Dominion-Chalmers. The congregation still has the right to use the space while relieving itself of building expenses.

    Useful to know. I was aware that Carleton's School of Music was involved in the mix someway but I never got around to looking at the precise arrangements.
  • I have finally finished the Ibbotson book on Pearson and Diefenbaker (my overall response to it is that it serves as a good introduction to the period for most readers, particularly for the few foreigners who might be interested).

    I would point out that Ibbotson tells us that Pearson's state funeral took place at "St Andrew's Cathedral." I do not know if the spirit of John Knox be pleased by the promotion of Saint Andrew's Presbyterian Church on Wellington to that of a cathedral, albeit bishopless. In any event, Pearson was buried from the nearby Christchurch Cathedral, in an ecumenical service (NY Times report) at which Arthur Moore, former moderator of the United Church of Canada, spoke. While the son of the Methodist manse, Pearson was not known to practise any religion, but had signed off on the plans, as is customary for retired prime ministers.
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    edited June 2024
    ...I would point out that Ibbotson tells us that Pearson's state funeral took place at "St Andrew's Cathedral." I do not know if the spirit of John Knox be pleased by the promotion of Saint Andrew's Presbyterian Church on Wellington to that of a cathedral, albeit bishopless.

    In The Big Shift, Ibbitson illustrates the ethos and mores of old Canada with a childhood recollection of witnessing an Orange Parade somewhere in southern Ontario. Sadly, his immersion in said milieu does not seem to have have reached the fathoms he wished to imply.
  • edited June 2024
    stetson wrote: »
    ...I would point out that Ibbotson tells us that Pearson's state funeral took place at "St Andrew's Cathedral." I do not know if the spirit of John Knox be pleased by the promotion of Saint Andrew's Presbyterian Church on Wellington to that of a cathedral, albeit bishopless.

    In The Big Shift, Ibbitson illustrates the ethos and mores of old Canada with a childhood recollection of witnessing an Orange Parade somewhere in southern Ontario. Sadly, his immersion in said milieu does not seem to have have reached the fathoms he wished to imply.

    It was Port Hope. Ibbotson is enamored of his (imagined) right-wing old (white) Canada which was a supposed panacea of free markets and self-reliance. While being oblivious to the fact that being openly gay was not accepted, either socially or legally, at that time. Or that "self-reliance" was a polite euphemism for poverty.

    The more I read of his works, the more I find he is high on his own supply. He posits himself as being in the virtuous in-group while not realizing just what that in-group means.

    I say this as a person who grew up in that neck of the woods and knows precisely what he is trying to refer to, down to the United Church in Port Hope he features in thatstory.
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    And Ibbitson never quite reconciles his simultaneous views of sectarian Orangemen as the Disappearing Establishment, with multicultural Laurentians as the Disappearing Establishment.

    Maybe he's trying to say that the ETHNIC heirs of the Orangemen are now the IDEOLOGICAL heirs of the Clear Grits(actually an arguable thesis), but I'm not sure if he's even aware of that conceptual tension in the first place.

    I also thought his championing of that Winter Olympics poem was pretty lame. The poem had few, if any, references to anything unmistakably Canadian, and almost every single line coulda been about any country that one happens to think is fresh and innovative.
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    edited June 2024
    Just for clarification...

    stetson wrote: »
    And Ibbitson never quite reconciles his simultaneous views of sectarian Orangemen as the Disappearing Establishment, with multiculturalist Laurentians as the Disappearing Establishment.

    Note the switch to "multiculturalist". I mean people who subscribe to ideologies like multiculturalism, not neccesarily people who are of multicultural ethnicity.

    IOW Ibbitson thinks that the adherents of ideologies supporting a cosmopolitan idea of Canada are mostly of old-stock ancestry.
  • I would like to introduce him to French teacher from Mongolia, who is on the Federal Payroll. As I said, catering to stereotypes.
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    Guess we'll be soon seeing if the cowtown-mayoralty-to-premier's desk path to power can work a second time.

    (Laurence Decore's similar route via Edmonton didn't pan out, obviously, thanks in no small part to the Calgary insurgent.)

    Nenshi will likely carry Edmonton, but I'm a little bit undecided about how he'll do in Calgary. He won re-election twice(?), but his numbers were actually pretty unimpressive relative to other Calgary incumbents.

    If he does win, he'll revive his earlier status as a counterpoint to the standard regionalist stereotypes, until the Cons come back in Alberta and some hipster takes over at Queen's Park.
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    I don't follow sports of any sort, but this year I do know when, where, and with which teams the last game of the Stanley Cup will be held.

    In Edmonton, pre-NHL-elevation, my friends and elders all cheered for the Canadiens against the Bruins in whatever year that was. I honestly have no idea if such westphalian solidarity would still be a thing among hockey-minded Canadians.

    I would assume that fewer Canadians feel affection for the Panthers than did or do for one of the original American teams, but that is also just a guess.

    And while it might be overly psychodramatic to interpret whatever nationalist rally exists as a collective eff-you to Gary Bettman, I do note that the last cup for a Canadian team was only a few months after he took over in 1993.
  • Well I'll be, the Alberta NDP actually decided to be a Political Party.
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    Well I'll be, the Alberta NDP actually decided to be a Political Party.

    Well, some would argue they became a regular political-party when they won a majority, and proceeded to NOT increase oil royalties, after years of hinting otherwise.

    But yeah, Nenshi is farther afield than I've ever seen the Alberta NDP go in searching out a new leader. I can't seem to find out exactly when he joined the party, but I don't think being NDP was part of his political identity for most of his mayoral tenure.
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    edited June 2024
    stetson wrote: »
    I don't follow sports of any sort, but this year I do know when, where, and with which teams the last game of the Stanley Cup will be held.

    Looks like I was wrong, as I had thought it was tonight(Sunday), but apparently it's tomorrow(Monday).

    The match is being held in Miami, and I would not care to speculate what impact that may have on the post-game gusts of emotion manifested on Whyte Avenue.
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    stetson wrote: »
    In Edmonton, pre-NHL-elevation, my friends and elders all cheered for the Canadiens against the Bruins in whatever year that was. I honestly have no idea if such westphalian solidarity would still be a thing among hockey-minded Canadians.

    Rachel Notley gave her farewell address in Calgary wearing an Oilers jersey, which leads me to suspect the dynamic at least works on a provincial level.
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    And you just know somebody in the UCP backrooms is scouring the relevant documents to discover if there's any way that Naheed Nenshi can be held at least partially responsible for the current state of Calgary's water system. (I personally have no idea.)
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    Apparently, Nenshi is quite keen on formally seperating the Alberta NDP from the federal party. In all honesty, the only real differences between the two are over resource extraction, and with only a handful of contested issues(basically, pipelines), but that is probably enough to make the federal party increasingly unwelcome throughout the province.
  • MarsupialMarsupial Shipmate
    So Toronto-St Paul, until yesterday considered a safe Liberal seat, unexpectedly went Conservative in yesterday’s by election. While the result was close - about 42% to 40.5% for the Conservatives over the Liberals, the comparison to 2021 (roughly L 49% C 25%) shows a major loss of support.
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    Marsupial wrote: »
    So Toronto-St Paul, until yesterday considered a safe Liberal seat, unexpectedly went Conservative in yesterday’s by election. While the result was close - about 42% to 40.5% for the Conservatives over the Liberals, the comparison to 2021 (roughly L 49% C 25%) shows a major loss of support.

    Wow, yeah. The Conservative average in that riding between 2011 and 2021 is 26 point something percent, and they only broke 30% once, in 2011.

    I don't know the riding at all, but I assume it's more of a middle-class "Blue Liberal" demographic? The NDP got 22% in 2011, but since then, has hovered around 15%.
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