Authoritarians and Higher Education.

Is it any wonder why a fascist government would want to attack Higher Education? Tyrants want mind control. They cannot stand a body of critical thinkers and innovators. Mussolini forced Italian professors to take loyalty oaths. At one time, many medical professionals in the middle east were trained in Egypt, but as that government became more authoritarian the medical field has suffered. Same with Turkey. It once had great secondary education, now it is diminished.

Is it any wonder, Trump is trying to exert control over American Higher Education? He hates free thought, and criticism coming from people who are demonstratively smarter than him. The idea of Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion is anathema to his white christian nationalist views. Of course, he is trying to make it sound like his is restoring America's ideals.

And he is going after the most prestigious universities first, thinking if he can get them to buckle, other lesser-known schools will fall in line. He thinks he is welding a pretty big club by threatening to withhold federal research funding. He succeeded at Columbia, but he is going to have a harder time at Harvard. All day I have been wondering why would he really want to take on the oldest private school in the nation? Harvard stands to lose more than $2.9 billion in this go around, but it appears the Harvard administration realizes its academic principles and mission are more important than money.

That's not to say smaller schools are not feeling the pressure too. Just today my local paper reported the University of Idaho will have a $57 million federal grant cancelled because it had to do with helping farmers adapt to climate change--another nasty word in Trump world. Idaho is not that big of a school. It is from a very conservative state. It can reapply for a grant more in line with the Trump criteria though.

Then there are reports of International Students losing their visas and their records are also disappearing--meaning they will not even be able to receive transcripts necessary to reapply to other schools outside of the US.

I am wondering what others are seeing in the colleges and universities near them.

We really have to support Harvard's resistance. If they cave, we will be rescinding back to the dark ages.
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Comments

  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    Agreed, but I'm not sure if this flows out of some thought-out objection to higher education in general, but is more likely just a case of Trump and MAGA hating certain political beliefs, with state-funded schools being the easiest venue for attacking those beliefs.

    Trump and Co. would probably like to ban the works of Noam Chomsky and Howard Zinn from being sold at Barnes & Noble, but since he has no power over what a private vendor sells, he takes the convenient route of harassing institutions that are reliant upon easy-to-cancel government funding.
  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    I'm gonna speculate that, with international scholars increasingly reluctant to visit America for scholarly conferences etc that may run afoul of MAGA's purity tests, this could possibly have a baleful impact on the economies of at least a few college towns.
  • ChastMastrChastMastr Shipmate
    My poor New College in Sarasota was basically taken over by Florida’s right-wing governor, DeSantis, two years ago.

  • stetsonstetson Shipmate
    ChastMastr wrote: »
    My poor New College in Sarasota was basically taken over by Florida’s right-wing governor, DeSantis, two years ago.

    Tangentially, but since we're talking about Sarasota and Republicans...

    What are most people around there calling the Gulf Of Mexico now?
  • ChastMastrChastMastr Shipmate
    stetson wrote: »
    ChastMastr wrote: »
    My poor New College in Sarasota was basically taken over by Florida’s right-wing governor, DeSantis, two years ago.

    Tangentially, but since we're talking about Sarasota and Republicans...

    What are most people around there calling the Gulf Of Mexico now?

    I call it the Gulf of Mexico. I think all my friends do as well. DeSantis signed this ghastly thing the other day, but screw him.

    https://www.wusf.org/politics-issues/2025-04-15/desantis-signs-bills-to-legally-change-name-of-gulf-of-mexico-to-gulf-of-america-in-florida
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    The Guardian has an excellent recap of the Trump fight with Harvard and what it means if they fold.

  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    stetson wrote: »
    Agreed, but I'm not sure if this flows out of some thought-out objection to higher education in general, but is more likely just a case of Trump and MAGA hating certain political beliefs, with state-funded schools being the easiest venue for attacking those beliefs.

    The right in the US has long been suspicious of or downright hated institutions of higher learning because they think universities indoctrinate students with liberal ideas. Nowadays they'd say "woke," but they have ranted for decades about how universities are too liberal.

    They didn't start with state-funded schools. Harvard isn't a state school. Neither is Columbia, the first one they went after. Pretty much all institutions of higher education get grants of various sorts from the federal government, including state schools, but it should be noted that in the US the "state" in state-funded schools refers to the fifty states.
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    Ruth wrote: »
    . . . but it should be noted that in the US the "state" in state-funded schools refers to the fifty states.
    And to a school’s status as being established by a state legislature and funded, at least in part, through appropriations from the legislature. A “state college or university” is an entity of the state.


  • Anti intellectualism in America is not new. I felt pressure from American culture from an early age. The 80s were so full of stupid frat movies, frat style TV commercials, sitcoms, one every week it seemed after Animal House. This is not new, it was/is a calculated program designed to marginalize anybody who dared to exercise critical thinking faculties.

    Now, since Big Bang Theory has made it cool to be a nerd, a geek, a dweeb, that kind of insult doesn't do the job of marginalizing people any more. Now those people are called "conspiracy theorists".

    It's something that crosses administrations and decades. It's a generational curse, not just a symptom of authoritarianism. Though it is that too.

    AFF
  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    Gramps49 wrote: »
    And he is going after the most prestigious universities first, thinking if he can get them to buckle, other lesser-known schools will fall in line. He thinks he is welding a pretty big club by threatening to withhold federal research funding. He succeeded at Columbia, but he is going to have a harder time at Harvard. All day I have been wondering why would he really want to take on the oldest private school in the nation? Harvard stands to lose more than $2.9 billion in this go around, but it appears the Harvard administration realizes its academic principles and mission are more important than money.

    This is probably a reflection of both an authoritarian mindset and the backgrounds of many of the people in Trump's inner circle. The authoritarian mind is hierarchical, so it seems natural to them to start with the most prestigious universities. To the authoritarian mind Harvard is the "king" of American higher education, so it makes sense to start with the king. This is also a common affectation among American prestige media, where any examination of "college life" will usually focus on a small number of high-prestige institutions.

    As @Ruth points out public colleges and universities seem to be mostly beneath the notice of these people for the moment. The noted exceptions being state-level officials who will target their state's flagship land grant college but, true to form, focus on that to the exclusion of any other institution of higher education. There are about 13.5 million students enrolled in public colleges and universities in the U.S. Slightly more tha 60,000 undergraduates attend Ivy League schools.
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    It does seem worth noting that four members of the Supreme Court have degrees from Harvard: Chief Justice Roberts and Justice Jackson went to Harvard for both undergrad and law school, and Justices Kagan and Gorsuch went there for law school. For other justices—Thomas, Alito, Sotomayor and Kavanaugh—have degrees from Yale, and three of those four also have degrees from Princeton, as do Justices Alito and Kagan. Yale and Princeton are undoubtedly watching what’s going on and preparing to be next. Justice Gorsuch went to Columbia for undergrad. And of course Kagan was Dean of Harvard Law School.

    I don’t think it’s a given how that background might contribute to the way this plays out. The conservative justices may well agree that the Ivies are too liberal and too “woke.” (See Students for Fair Admissions v. Harvard for a majority of the Court siding with those challenging Harvard’s policies.) I’m not sure, though, that will translate into approving of governmental targeting of Harvard and other Ivies. It’ll be interesting, especially alongside the administration thumbing its nose at the federal judiciary.


  • ChastMastr wrote: »
    I call it the Gulf of Mexico. I think all my friends do as well.

    I gather that some of those more at risk of having funding removed for not complying with these authoritarian diktats refer to it as "the Gulf".
  • I have a feeling that the Arabs and Persians have come to a similar detente. Who'd have thought it in the USA.
  • I have a feeling that the Arabs and Persians have come to a similar detente. Who'd have thought it in the USA.

    Bizarre tangent - in the navy we frequently (though not in official publications) referred to the Persian Gulf, even though - or perhaps because - generations of sailors had mostly been there to keep an eye on Iran.

    Which is taking a side on nomenclature, but not for the reasons the ‘winner’ would appreciate I guess. Not that it was calculated.

    Then it became the NAG (Northern Arabian Gulf) as the focus switched to Iraq.
  • ChastMastrChastMastr Shipmate
    I have a feeling that the Arabs and Persians have come to a similar detente. Who'd have thought it in the USA.

    Bizarre tangent - in the navy we frequently (though not in official publications) referred to the Persian Gulf, even though - or perhaps because - generations of sailors had mostly been there to keep an eye on Iran.

    Which is taking a side on nomenclature, but not for the reasons the ‘winner’ would appreciate I guess. Not that it was calculated.

    Then it became the NAG (Northern Arabian Gulf) as the focus switched to Iraq.

    Wait, it’s not the Persian Gulf anymore?
  • ChastMastr wrote: »
    I have a feeling that the Arabs and Persians have come to a similar detente. Who'd have thought it in the USA.

    Bizarre tangent - in the navy we frequently (though not in official publications) referred to the Persian Gulf, even though - or perhaps because - generations of sailors had mostly been there to keep an eye on Iran.

    Which is taking a side on nomenclature, but not for the reasons the ‘winner’ would appreciate I guess. Not that it was calculated.

    Then it became the NAG (Northern Arabian Gulf) as the focus switched to Iraq.

    Wait, it’s not the Persian Gulf anymore?
    Persian Gulf or Arabian Gulf depending on whose side you’re taking/specifically not taking.

    For about the last 60 yeats.
  • ChastMastrChastMastr Shipmate
    edited April 19
    ChastMastr wrote: »
    I have a feeling that the Arabs and Persians have come to a similar detente. Who'd have thought it in the USA.

    Bizarre tangent - in the navy we frequently (though not in official publications) referred to the Persian Gulf, even though - or perhaps because - generations of sailors had mostly been there to keep an eye on Iran.

    Which is taking a side on nomenclature, but not for the reasons the ‘winner’ would appreciate I guess. Not that it was calculated.

    Then it became the NAG (Northern Arabian Gulf) as the focus switched to Iraq.

    Wait, it’s not the Persian Gulf anymore?
    Persian Gulf or Arabian Gulf depending on whose side you’re taking/specifically not taking.

    For about the last 60 yeats.

    OMG all this time I just assumed it was the Persian Gulf because that’s what I heard it called back then. If I had heard of the Arabian Gulf, which I probably did at some point, I would’ve assumed it was a different gulf.

    (When I was very young, I thought that there were two states, one called Ar-kan-zuz and the other called Ar-kan-saw, because I saw the name Arkansas and heard the name Ar-kan-saw, and just assumed that they were two different places.)

    (I also vaguely wondered about whether going “up north” might suggest that there was an actual upward movement, maybe an incline—again, I was very young…)
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    And I thought this thread was about trump and higher education. Whoops I meant why tyrants hate higher education. Sorry.

    Trump. Wants to revoke Harvard s. Tax exempt status which is next to impossible since educational institutions have long had exemption. The only school that has lost federal tax exemption is Bob Jones University for racial discrimination. While Trump would argue Harvard DEI statement is reversed discrimination Harvard would argue it is a first amendment issue as well as a civil rights violation. It could be held up in the courts for a very long time considering how many justices come through Harvard
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    edited April 22
    Anti intellectualism in America is not new. I felt pressure from American culture from an early age. The 80s were so full of stupid frat movies, frat style TV commercials, sitcoms, one every week it seemed after Animal House. This is not new, it was/is a calculated program designed to marginalize anybody who dared to exercise critical thinking faculties.

    Now, since Big Bang Theory has made it cool to be a nerd, a geek, a dweeb, that kind of insult doesn't do the job of marginalizing people any more. Now those people are called "conspiracy theorists".

    It's something that crosses administrations and decades. It's a generational curse, not just a symptom of authoritarianism. Though it is that too.

    AFF

    That's an interesting take on the relationship between conspiracy theories and anti-intellectualism. The conspiracy theorists I come across are all anti-intellectual, essentially thinking their 20 minutes watching some grifter's YouTube video is better than the years getting PhDs that actual experts have - from Flat Earthers through Moon Landing Deniers to Creationists and Climate Change Deniers.

    I do not positively correlate critical thinking with being accused of being a conspiracy theorist. Rather the opposite.
  • A Feminine ForceA Feminine Force Shipmate
    edited April 22
    KarlLB wrote: »

    That's an interesting take on the relationship between conspiracy theories and anti-intellectualism. The conspiracy theorists I come across are all anti-intellectual, essentially thinking their 20 minutes watching some grifter's YouTube video is better than the years getting PhDs that actual experts have - from Flat Earthers through Moon Landing Deniers to Creationists and Climate Change Deniers.

    I do not positively correlate critical thinking with being accused of being a conspiracy theorist. Rather the opposite.

    Well and you can see the success of such a label in marginalizing anybody who "thinks differently". Because people such as you describe actually exist, and because they are so easily derided, the label, once it's applied, sticks like glue.

    A healthy level of skepticism never hurts, especially when there is a LOT of money involved in the narrative being promoted. It's a logical fallacy to think that just because someone is an expert or a scientist that they can't have an agenda or that their profession or discipline automatically makes them ethical people.

    "Cui bono" is my default position.

    AFF


  • GwaiGwai Epiphanies Host
    Anti intellectualism in America is not new. I felt pressure from American culture from an early age. The 80s were so full of stupid frat movies, frat style TV commercials, sitcoms, one every week it seemed after Animal House. This is not new, it was/is a calculated program designed to marginalize anybody who dared to exercise critical thinking faculties.

    I too remember anti-intellectualism since the 80s. My mother was a college professor until she retired. I got to hear the snide comments about intellectuals, said to me because it was a small town and everyone knew who my mom was. I remember the church where quite a few people figured it was religion or education. I associate a lot of sort of thinking with Reaganite Republicans. But those anti-intellectuals are the same people who would put out the conspiracy theories in my experience.
  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    KarlLB wrote: »

    That's an interesting take on the relationship between conspiracy theories and anti-intellectualism. The conspiracy theorists I come across are all anti-intellectual, essentially thinking their 20 minutes watching some grifter's YouTube video is better than the years getting PhDs that actual experts have - from Flat Earthers through Moon Landing Deniers to Creationists and Climate Change Deniers.

    I do not positively correlate critical thinking with being accused of being a conspiracy theorist. Rather the opposite.

    Well and you can see the success of such a label in marginalizing anybody who "thinks differently". Because people such as you describe actually exist, and because they are so easily derided, the label, once it's applied, sticks like glue.

    A healthy level of skepticism never hurts, especially when there is a LOT of money involved in the narrative being promoted. It's a logical fallacy to think that just because someone is an expert or a scientist that they can't have an agenda or that their profession or discipline automatically makes them ethical people.

    "Cui bono" is my default position.

    AFF


    Could you describe some of the narratives you think are falsely promoted by scientists for ulterior motives, the going against of which would have you labelled a 'conspiracy theorist'?
  • CaissaCaissa Shipmate
    I don't think Canada experienced the same anti-intellectualism in the eighties. I spent the whole decade as a university student and I have no memory of Reaganism leaking across the border.
  • The_RivThe_Riv Shipmate
    I tend to trace things back to Richard Nixon, who said to Kissinger in 1972: “Never forget, the press is the enemy. The establishment is the enemy. The professors are the enemy. Professors are the enemy. Write that on a blackboard 100 times and never forget it.” This is where JD Vance got it. He said 'The professors are the enemy' at the end of a 2021 speech entitled "The Universities are the Enemy." So, this is art least a 50 year-old aspect of American Conservatism. It's received a big boost from American Evangelical and Fundamentalist Christianity, which has extended this notion down through Public School, and grown this country's Home School sector of the education economy.

    But yes, the policing of the thoughts of Americans is in full effect with this Administration, and what they haven't already been indoctrinating from younger levels they'll abuse, criminalize, and attempt to punish at the upper levels.
  • A Feminine ForceA Feminine Force Shipmate
    edited April 22
    Gwai wrote: »
    I too remember anti-intellectualism since the 80s. My mother was a college professor until she retired. I got to hear the snide comments about intellectuals, said to me because it was a small town and everyone knew who my mom was. I remember the church where quite a few people figured it was religion or education. I associate a lot of sort of thinking with Reaganite Republicans. But those anti-intellectuals are the same people who would put out the conspiracy theories in my experience.

    I majored in philosophy with Reasoning and Critical Thinking I and II being required courses. Basically they were all about being able to spot all types of logical fallacies and being able to construct logically sound lines of reasoning.

    Whenever I had questions about some aspect of the news of the day I was always told "You think too hard".

    I believe there is a strain of anti intellectualism that preys deliberately on people's credulity, and their inability to spot a fallacy when they see it. Such people as you describe I regard more as victims than perpetrators of obfuscation. The fact that Reasoning and Critical Thinking is not part of the core curriculum in first year secondary school, and is only considered an obscure elective in most post secondary institutions makes me wonder who or what benefits from the scarcity or obscurity of this skill set.

    But there's also a strain of anti intellectualism that depends on the cooperation of mass agreement, and which doesn't profit from close scrutiny by trained minds.

    I think both types exist and authoritarianism can profit from either or both.

    AFF


  • A Feminine ForceA Feminine Force Shipmate
    edited April 22
    KarlLB wrote: »

    Could you describe some of the narratives you think are falsely promoted by scientists for ulterior motives, the going against of which would have you labelled a 'conspiracy theorist'?

    I don't think "falsely promoted" is how I would describe the issue of global warming. There's no arguing that it's happening, but the extent to which this phenomenon is exclusively attributable to human activity on the planet I still see no unanimous consensus on.

    That being said, I believe we should reduce our carbon footprint as a matter of good stewardship of the planet's resources, as a matter of efficiency and economy and as a way to make the lives of everyone and evetything better.

    If it can be done it should be done for its own sake. If it turns out we are simply exacerbating and accelerating a process that's built into the planet's evolution then we should desist as far as we are able for our own sakes.

    AFF

  • The_RivThe_Riv Shipmate
    I'm reminded of this quote by Isaac Asimov: “There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.”

    Add to that the seeming raison d'etre of social media, which is to share one's reflexive opinion, and/or validate or critique others' reflexive opinions regardless of consideration, context or experience, let alone expertise.
  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Could you describe some of the narratives you think are falsely promoted by scientists for ulterior motives, the going against of which would have you labelled a 'conspiracy theorist'?
    I don't think "falsely promoted" is how I would describe the issue of global warming. There's no arguing that it's happening, but the extent to which this phenomenon is exclusively attributable to human activity on the planet I still see no unanimous consensus on.

    The fact that atmospheric carbon-14 levels have declined rather dramatically pretty definitively indicates that human activity has caused the increased atmospheric CO2 concentrations that are widely agreed to be the main driver of climate change. That aside, you didn't say what you thought the ulterior motive was for scientists promoting the idea of anthropogenic climate change. I remember when this was first posited it was suggested that scientists wanted that sweet, sweet research grant money that had made them all so unspeakably rich, unlike those simple, impoverished souls at ExxonMobil. Is that your hypothesis as well?
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    Anti-intellectualism in the US pre-dates Reagan by a long shot. (Historian Richard Hofstadter published Anti-intellectualism in American Life in 1963 and won the Pulitzer Prize for it.) It was embedded in American life in the colonial period for several reasons. The Puritans preached anti-intellectualism (including John Cotton, himself a scholar). Early colonial life was hard, and there was a premium on practical knowledge and ability, as opposed to "book learning." A lot of European settlers and later immigrants were drawn from the lower classes, coming here as indentured servants. Intellectualism, higher learning, the fine life -- these things were all identified by a lot of people as belonging to the decadent and punitive Europe they had left behind. The isolation and difficulty of rural life first on the east coast and then inland as more land was colonized lent (and today still lends) itself to anti-intellectualism -- those rich indolent bastards in the cities don't know how hard life is out here and couldn't handle it if they did, so how dare they pretend to tell us what to think.
  • A Feminine ForceA Feminine Force Shipmate
    edited April 22
    Crœsos wrote: »
    The fact that atmospheric carbon-14 levels have declined rather dramatically pretty definitively indicates that human activity has caused the increased atmospheric CO2 concentrations that are widely agreed to be the main driver of climate change. That aside, you didn't say what you thought the ulterior motive was for scientists promoting the idea of anthropogenic climate change. I remember when this was first posited it was suggested that scientists wanted that sweet, sweet research grant money that had made them all so unspeakably rich, unlike those simple, impoverished souls at ExxonMobil. Is that your hypothesis as well?

    No. And I don't appreciate your tone, so I'll respectfully decline to give you the benefit of any further thought and energy I have given to the topic.

    If a single article in a single scientific paper is sufficient for you to declare your mind made up, then I'm not going to argue with you. My mind is still not made up, but for reasons already stated, I think that carbon reduction activity would be a good thing in and of itself.

    AFF






  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    Crœsos wrote: »
    The fact that atmospheric carbon-14 levels have declined rather dramatically pretty definitively indicates that human activity has caused the increased atmospheric CO2 concentrations that are widely agreed to be the main driver of climate change. That aside, you didn't say what you thought the ulterior motive was for scientists promoting the idea of anthropogenic climate change. I remember when this was first posited it was suggested that scientists wanted that sweet, sweet research grant money that had made them all so unspeakably rich, unlike those simple, impoverished souls at ExxonMobil. Is that your hypothesis as well?

    No. And I don't appreciate your tone, so I'll respectfully decline to give you the benefit of any further thought and energy I have given to the topic.

    If a single article in a single scientific paper is sufficient for you to declare your mind made up, then I'm not going to argue with you. My mind is still not made up, but for reasons already stated, I think that carbon reduction activity would be a good thing in and of itself.

    AFF

    Nobody is depending on a single article in a single paper. The link Croesos provided goes to a webpage containing a summary of evidence that has in fact come from any number of studies.

    I know Croesos has annoyed you but would you be willing to share with the rest of us what the motivation you ascribe to the scientists who you think are overstating their case?
  • CaissaCaissa Shipmate
    I remember reading the Hofstader book in my undergraduate day. I remember it being quite good.
  • A Feminine ForceA Feminine Force Shipmate
    edited April 22
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Crœsos wrote: »
    The fact that atmospheric carbon-14 levels have declined rather dramatically pretty definitively indicates that human activity has caused the increased atmospheric CO2 concentrations that are widely agreed to be the main driver of climate change. That aside, you didn't say what you thought the ulterior motive was for scientists promoting the idea of anthropogenic climate change. I remember when this was first posited it was suggested that scientists wanted that sweet, sweet research grant money that had made them all so unspeakably rich, unlike those simple, impoverished souls at ExxonMobil. Is that your hypothesis as well?

    No. And I don't appreciate your tone, so I'll respectfully decline to give you the benefit of any further thought and energy I have given to the topic.

    If a single article in a single scientific paper is sufficient for you to declare your mind made up, then I'm not going to argue with you. My mind is still not made up, but for reasons already stated, I think that carbon reduction activity would be a good thing in and of itself.

    AFF

    Nobody is depending on a single article in a single paper. The link Croesos provided goes to a webpage containing a summary of evidence that has in fact come from any number of studies.

    I know Croesos has annoyed you but would you be willing to share with the rest of us what the motivation you ascribe to the scientists who you think are overstating their case?

    I didn't say they have any motive and I didn't say that anybody was overstating their case. I wish people would read for comprehension.

    I said that just because someone is an expert or a scientist doesn't mean that they can have no other motive, or that they are automatically ethical people.

    I didn't say they have one. I said, it's not always the case that they don't.

    If the question "cui bono" doesn't immediately yield the answer, it doesn't mean that it should be dismissed at the outset. It should always be kept in mind.

    It's perfectly reasonable to keep an open mind about things if one does the digging and doesn't find an immediately satisfactory answer. Sometimes we have to wait decades - like we did when we finally figured out that lead in gasoline and cigarettes were killing us.

    Keeping an open mind doesn't mean opposing a point of view. It just means refusing to commit to a position. For reasons stated, I believe it's wisest not to wait decades, but what I think or don't think is unlikely to influence the outcome anyway.

    AFF

  • A healthy level of skepticism never hurts, especially when there is a LOT of money involved in the narrative being promoted. It's a logical fallacy to think that just because someone is an expert or a scientist that they can't have an agenda or that their profession or discipline automatically makes them ethical people.

    Snake oil salesmen tell you to trust them. Honest people will happily explain the evidence that supports their position to anyone that is willing to engage constructively with such a discussion. At some point, the willingness of honest people to engage with the same lazy questions from people who don't appear to be engaging in good faith, but are just raising a series of unsupported objections disappears.

    In a good faith discussion, if I present to you a set of data that supports hypothesis A, you don't just get to say "I don't like that data - I like hypothesis B" or "that's not enough data - I like hypothesis B". You need to engage with the data, and the reasoning that demonstrates support for hypothesis A. Can you find major flaws in the data (specific deficiencies, not just "I don't like the answer")? Can you find major flaws in the reasoning that argues that the data supports hypothesis A? Can you argue that the data equally supports hypothesis B? Can you suggest measurable tests to distinguish between A and B?

  • Snake oil salesmen tell you to trust them. Honest people will happily explain the evidence that supports their position to anyone that is willing to engage constructively with such a discussion. At some point, the willingness of honest people to engage with the same lazy questions from people who don't appear to be engaging in good faith, but are just raising a series of unsupported objections disappears.

    In a good faith discussion, if I present to you a set of data that supports hypothesis A, you don't just get to say "I don't like that data - I like hypothesis B" or "that's not enough data - I like hypothesis B". You need to engage with the data, and the reasoning that demonstrates support for hypothesis A. Can you find major flaws in the data (specific deficiencies, not just "I don't like the answer")? Can you find major flaws in the reasoning that argues that the data supports hypothesis A? Can you argue that the data equally supports hypothesis B? Can you suggest measurable tests to distinguish between A and B?

    I'm not trying to convince you of anything therefore I have no "oil" to sell.

    I think you should take your own advice, though, and answer your own questions for yourself.

    AFF



  • ArethosemyfeetArethosemyfeet Shipmate, Heaven Host
    The evidence of human contribution to rising global temperatures is vast. Keeping an open mind is a reasonable response to a paucity of information or conflicting information of equivalent scale and quality. It is not a reasonable response to the decades of evidence laying out cause, effect and mechanism for humans causing increased global temperatures.
  • A Feminine ForceA Feminine Force Shipmate
    edited April 22
    The evidence of human contribution to rising global temperatures is vast. Keeping an open mind is a reasonable response to a paucity of information or conflicting information of equivalent scale and quality. It is not a reasonable response to the decades of evidence laying out cause, effect and mechanism for humans causing increased global temperatures.

    I didn't say there was no evidence. I just think there's a chance that it isn't the only thing that's at play and that it would be a good thing to reduce our carbon footprint because if it can be done it should be.

    If in your opinion I'm unreasonable, I can live with that.

    AFF
  • RuthRuth Shipmate
    KarlLB wrote: »
    The conspiracy theorists I come across are all anti-intellectual, essentially thinking their 20 minutes watching some grifter's YouTube video is better than the years getting PhDs that actual experts have - from Flat Earthers through Moon Landing Deniers to Creationists and Climate Change Deniers.

    The only conspiracy theorist I've talked to in person at any real length is an extremely smart guy with a PhD in physics. In his case I think the attraction to conspiracy theories comes from paranoia -- another thing Hofstadter wrote about, in The Paranoid Style in American Politics.
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host
    With the benefit of hindsight it’s easy to see who profited from continuing to add lead to petroleum, promote the continuance of smoking, and the safety of asbestos; and to see from direct evidence both why and how scientific evidence to the contrary was suppressed, ridiculed, drowned out, falsified or ignored by those whose commercial interests were at stake.

    ISTM that evidence for anthropogenic climate change is in the same class, and that, drilling down, the case against it is resourced or promoted by similar interests.

    The cui bono question seems to me to have a pretty clear answer.

    It is possible that there is a natural climate change cycle also having an effect, but ISTM that simply offers an additional reason for reducing the human contribution to the change.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    Just because anthropological climate change is not fully understood or proven does not mean we should stop studying it
  • DafydDafyd Hell Host
    At this stage, saying anthropological climate change is not fully understood or proven is like saying evolution is not fully understood or proven.
  • Dafyd wrote: »
    At this stage, saying anthropological climate change is not fully understood or proven is like saying evolution is not fully understood or proven.

    That's a pretty fair comparison. Both are settled science, in terms of the big picture and the general thrust of what happens. In both cases, there are details that we are still learning. Each new detail we learn makes a minor modification to the state of knowledge, but does not change the general conclusions.
  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    I have to say this is only the second time someone has posted at me essentially saying "Crœsos, you didn't post enough hyperlinked references". At any rate, the good folks at NASA have gone to the trouble of collecting together statements by various scientific organizations that climate change is happening and that human activity is almost* certainly the cause.
    KarlLB wrote: »
    Could you describe some of the narratives you think are falsely promoted by scientists for ulterior motives, the going against of which would have you labelled a 'conspiracy theorist'?
    I didn't say they have any motive and I didn't say that anybody was overstating their case. I wish people would read for comprehension.

    I know you didn't ascribe any motives to scientists you accuse of falsifying or over-stating their results. You deliberately ignored that part of @KarlLB's post so I was re-prompting you on that question. If you're theorizing a conspiracy, what are the conspirators conspiring to accomplish?

    One of the more interesting analyses of the subject I've come across makes a distinction between "conspiracy theories" and "conspiracism".
    Nancy Rosenblum: Cognitive and political psychologists will tell you the cognitive afflictions that result in the worst and most zealous kind of conspiracy theory really are common; we all share them. We like to think that agents are the causes of things, rather than accidents or unintended consequences being the cause. We like to think there’s a proportionality between cause and effect, and that causes us to overreach for explanations.

    But there’s a difference between those people who earnestly want to know what’s happening and those who have a conspiracist mindset; the latter tend to see the world entirely that way. They tend to see the world in terms of enemies, not just events that need an explanation.

    Sean Illing: In the book, you argue that conspiracy theorizing is different today, that we have the conspiracism without the theory. What does that mean?

    Nancy Rosenblum: I mean that conspiracy theorizing today dispenses with the burden of explanation. In fact, sometimes, as in Pizzagate, there’s absolutely nothing that needs to be explained, and there’s no real demand for truth or facts. There are no actual dots that need to be connected to form a pattern.

    Instead, we have conspiracy charges that take a new form: bare assertion. Instead of trying to explain something that happened in the world, it’s about creating a narrative that itself becomes the reason for the conspiracism.
    And it even spreads in a much different way.

    For instance, much of the conspiracism today spreads through innuendo. You’ll hear people say, “I just want to know more, I’m just asking questions.” Or, as President Trump likes to say, “A lot of people are saying...” This is conspiracy without any theory. It’s about validating preexisting beliefs by constantly repeating false claims that reinforce what you already believe.

    So it’s not merely that someone thinks Hillary Clinton is an unworthy candidate; we have to make up a story about her sex trafficking in children. And by repeating these things and assenting to them, you’re signaling a kind of group affinity. Conspiracy without the theory has become a form of political participation.

    Note that this interview was published in October 2019.

    So claims that something other than human activity is causing climate change is a conspiracy theory (the warming of the Earth is a fact that some consider requires an explanation other than the current scientific consensus), whereas claims that Haitian immigrants are eating local pets is conspiracism (there is no surge in missing pets that needs to be explained).

    That itself may be the reason for the increased intensity of attacks on higher education by the American right. They no longer need to provide alternative explanations to a set of facts, they can simply create their own "facts". That probably greatly simplifies the process.


    * It is nearly impossible to get a scientist to make an unqualified or absolute statement about their conclusions, which tends to project a false sense of uncertainty when those statements are read by laypeople.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    There is more to the controlling of Higher Education than arguing over the validity of climate change. There is the issue of what interpretation of history you want taught in American schools. Do you want to have the white superiority version which we have heard for the most part or the Project 1619 version that was started by the New York Times which emphasize the contributions of other minorities. There is also the Critical Race Theory which discusses the systematic discrimination of blacks up until now.

    Then too, there is still the issue of evolution. Not exactly settled theory in American society.

    And there are several technological issues. For instance, many people objected to the Covid vaccine because of several issues.

    The fascists want to control free speech, and innovation.

    In the case of Harvard, the government want to have a say in who is hired be they administrators, faculty, and staff. They want to determine who can be admitted into the student body, and they want to have right of determination of what is taught throughout the curriculum.

    Harvard, and other private institutions pride themselves of diversity, equality and inclusion. That is anathema to white christian nationalists.

    It is not just about climate change.
  • One difficulty is that you can have a person who is highly educated in one field but somehow nevertheless fails to apply critical thinking etc. to another field. It's very odd to be debunking conspiracy theories when you know the other person holds a terminal degree in some other field and ought to be applying his/her skills rather than needing you to do it for them... human, I guess.
  • Gramps49Gramps49 Shipmate
    edited April 24
    And now the fascist government of the White House has issued a new executive order taking on the accrediting associations of colleges and universities. Executive Action here.. If you read through it closely you will see it is attacking any action that smacks of the "woke" culture. What this means is the independence of the national and regional accrediting associations will be destroyed. No doubt there will be few more lawsuits in the works.
  • While there is a strand of anti-intellectualism in American culture that goes way back, it is also true that we were one of the first countries to establish universal primary education, and one of the first acts of any state being admitted to the Union in the 19th and early 20th centuries was to establish a state university, and after the Second World War there was a movement to make post secondary education widely accessible. It was only in the 1970s, in the wake of the antiwar movement, that state legislatures began defunding those universities. Conservatives have always had an ambivalent attitude toward education, especially for the masses--it produces useful knowledge and more productive workers, but it also leads to people asking awkward questions, like "Why does society have to be like this? Could it be different?" They've now decided they want to prevent those questions from being asked at all.
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    While there is a strand of anti-intellectualism in American culture that goes way back, it is also true that we were one of the first countries to establish universal primary education, and one of the first acts of any state being admitted to the Union in the 19th and early 20th centuries was to establish a state university, . . . .
    Not just the 19th and early 20th centuries. The North Carolina Constitution of 1776 mandated that:
    That a school or schools shall be established by the Legislature, for the convenient instruction of youth, with such salaries to the masters, paid by the public, as may enable them to instruct at low prices; and all useful learning shall be duly encouraged, and promoted, in one or more universities.
    The University of North Carolina was chartered in 1789, began classes in 1795 and conferred its first degrees in 1789.

    The University of Georgia was chartered in 1785, but didn’t began admitting students until 1801. The University of Virginia followed soon after (though by then, of course, we are in the 19th Century).


  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    The University of Virginia followed soon after (though by then, of course, we are in the 19th Century).

    Thomas Jefferson used his post-presidency to found the University of Virginia. In fact, it's one of the three accomplishments he wanted listed on his tombstone, which reads "here was buried Thomas Jefferson, author of the Declaration of American Independence, of the statute of Virginia for religious freedom and father of the University of Virginia". Note that he doesn't mention having been President of the United States. He apparently ranked that below the other three and not worth mentioning. So yes, Americans have always regarded higher education as a point of prestige, at least in the abstract. In practice their feelings about higher education as it exists are often more ambivalent.
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    Crœsos wrote: »
    So yes, Americans have always regarded higher education as a point of prestige, at least in the abstract. In practice their feelings about higher education as it exists are often more ambivalent.
    Which seems to me to be an observation that could be made about pretty much anything involving people—in the abstract, we’re clear how we feel, but in actual practice, generally more ambivalent.


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