Fucking Guns

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  • TukaiTukai Shipmate
    One case of gun violence in America that actually makes the news here on the other side of the Pacific Ocean is the trial in Texas of the off-duty cop who walked into the wrong apartment (thinking it was hers0 , saw a strange man there, and shot him on sight. I have lived in an apartment block where my neighbours and I often made this mistake (the apartments above each other look the same at first glance and have the same floor plan) .

    The difference was that I was in a country with very strict gun laws, so we just went "oops", apologised and walked away with both of us still alive and ready to laugh at the experience, rather than cry at the funeral. .
  • OhherOhher Shipmate
    US SHOOTINGS REPORT 10/8/19

    Statistics for 10/7/2019
    Total mass shootings (4 or more casualties): 1: 5 dead
    Total deaths: 29
    Total injuries: 65
    Children under 12 killed: 3: 1 age 11, 2 age 9
    Info courtesy of Gun Violence Archive.org.
    Any errors mine.
  • Tukai--

    Thanks for that post. I didn't follow the story closely; but I had a hard time believing her account, and believing that the man's door was unlocked or open. (Maybe in a college dorm, but an apartment building?) But your experiences make her account more plausible.

    ---

    Did anyone else hear about what the victim's brother did for his killer? Here's an account from NBC News, in the first half of the article.

    Wow.
  • One of the witnesses in that case has already been murdered, police reports of how he came to be shot in the mouth are implausible at best.
  • OhherOhher Shipmate
    God.

    Canada, would you give me asylum if I can make it to the border?
  • OhherOhher Shipmate
    US SHOOTINGS REPORT 10/9/19

    Statistics for 10/8/2019
    Total mass shootings (4 or more casualties): 0
    Total deaths: 27
    Total injuries: 60
    Children under 12 killed: 0
    Info courtesy of Gun Violence Archive.org.
    Any errors mine.
  • OhherOhher Shipmate
    US SHOOTINGS REPORT 10/10/19

    Statistics for 10/9/2019
    Total mass shootings (4 or more casualties): 1: 1 dead, 3 injured
    Total deaths: 30
    Total injuries: 46
    Children under 12 killed: 0
    Info courtesy of Gun Violence Archive.org.
    Any errors mine.
  • Ohher wrote: »
    God.

    Canada, would you give me asylum if I can make it to the border?

    Well if you cross the border and make a claim....
  • Golden Key wrote: »
    Tukai--

    Thanks for that post. I didn't follow the story closely; but I had a hard time believing her account, and believing that the man's door was unlocked or open. (Maybe in a college dorm, but an apartment building?) But your experiences make her account more plausible.

    ---

    Did anyone else hear about what the victim's brother did for his killer? Here's an account from NBC News, in the first half of the article.

    Wow.

    Badly timed. The perpetrator had been convicted via trial. Contrition and sorrow over misdeeds aren't things that just appear following conviction you didn't plead guilty to.
  • NP--

    I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. The victim's brother forgave her, rather splendidly. (Emphasis on what *he* did and said. And, AFAIK, *he* was the one who started the interaction.) How is that badly timed?

    I haven't followed the case, but I've heard she was a wreck immediately after realizing what she'd done.
  • Golden Key wrote: »
    NP--

    I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. The victim's brother forgave her, rather splendidly. (Emphasis on what *he* did and said. And, AFAIK, *he* was the one who started the interaction.) How is that badly timed?

    I haven't followed the case, but I've heard she was a wreck immediately after realizing what she'd done.

    I don't believe that a public display in a court room after being convicted at trial means that the convicted person is a wreck because of what they've done. But I don't believe in miraculous changes of heart at all. In any context, Paul on Damascus Road, born againness, miracles etc. I need proof that it isn't self focussed and not a demonstration of "poor me". Horrified at being convicted more likely. That said, it's great threatre.

    It's not fair to compare similar, other such situations perhaps. But these sort of throwing an upset display in a court aren't uncommon, with remorse and contriteness recommended to hopefully influence toward a lesser sentence. Put plainly, I don't accept a few minutes display in an open courtroom. If this was the result of actually doing the work of reconciliation over some time in a facilitated context, I'd be more sympathetic.

    Our natural human response is to want closure and an ending which reassures us that the world is as we'd like it. That a good person committed a bad act, that our sense of things being reasonable in a sensible world can be restored by what we interpret as an apology. And that a bereaved family can be healed and move on. But it doesn't work that way. The least interesting person in the court is the convicted woman. The story I want to understand is of the victim's family member who approached the convicted murderer.
  • OhherOhher Shipmate
    US SHOOTINGS REPORT 10/11/19

    Statistics for 10/10/2019
    Total mass shootings (4 or more casualties): 2: 2 dead, 7 injured
    Total deaths: 31
    Total injuries: 46
    Children under 12 killed: 0
    Info courtesy of Gun Violence Archive.org.
    Any errors mine
  • OhherOhher Shipmate
    A mass shooting in Brooklyn made headlines today. It will be included in tomorrow's report. Meanwhile . . .

    US SHOOTINGS REPORT 10/12/19

    Statistics for 10/11/2019
    Total mass shootings (4 or more casualties): 0
    Total deaths: 14
    Total injuries: 46
    Children under 12 killed: 0
    Info courtesy of Gun Violence Archive.org.
    Any errors mine.

    I am beginning to wonder about the Archive's accuracy. 46 gun-related injuries on three days in a row seems a tad coincidental.
  • edited October 13
    A neo Nazi tried to shoot up a synagogue in Halle, Germany. The doors were secured. He killed people outside on the street. https://www.dw.com/en/halle-suspect-confesses-to-yom-kippur-shooting/a-50791324
    There's nothing like right wing gun violence. Yom Kippur. It's like wanting to shoot up a church on Xmas eve.
  • OhherOhher Shipmate
    Or wanting to shoot up a church in which a wedding is taking place, which happened earlier today in the state where I live.
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host
    In Texas and worried about your neighbour’s safety? Don’t call the cops!
  • I saw that. This could also go under white shite supremacy.
  • BroJamesBroJames Purgatory Host
    I don’t know that the cop took long enough to discern the woman’s colour. (Judging from the video - which may have been edited.)
  • OhherOhher Shipmate
    Well, the US situation (general, not this specific case) was predictable, was it not?

    Step 1: Bring together several diverse immigrant populations. If already disposed to hate each other, fine; if not, sow nasty rumors, encourage envy and suspicion. Re-sow rumors and hatred with each new group to arrive. "They're after our jobs / women / land / power," etc.

    Step 2: When occasional violence and civic unrest break out, arm your police and encourage them to crack down much harder on some groups than others.

    Step 3: When relative order is temporarily restored, begin arming the populace, whispering in their ears about the many dangerous Others surrounding them, rendering the job of policing even more difficult and hazardous than it already was.

    Step 4: As police crack down selectively on various groups, collect evidence of bias, unequal treatment, favoritism, etc. Encourage hatred of police.

    Step 5: As police begin falling victim to attacks by assorted maligned groups, encourage fear and resentment among privileged groups.

    Step 6: Breakdown of civil order. How close are we to this? Is it a race between this and the complete normalization of constant low-level civil unrest as a way of life?
  • OhherOhher Shipmate
    US SHOOTINGS REPORT 10/13/19

    Statistics for 10/12/2019
    Total mass shootings (4 or more casualties): 5: Brooklyn, 4 dead, 3 injured; Philadelphia, 1 dead, 3 injured; Eastpointe Michigan, 0 dead, 6 injured; Baltimore, 1 dead, 3 injured; Chicago, 4 dead, 1 injured.
    Total deaths: 28
    Total injuries: 82
    Children under 12 killed: 0
    Info courtesy of Gun Violence Archive.org.
    Any errors mine.

    Can we require the NRA to provide healthcare coverage to people injured by gun violence?
  • Our natural human response is to want closure and an ending which reassures us that the world is as we'd like it. That a good person committed a bad act, that our sense of things being reasonable in a sensible world can be restored by what we interpret as an apology. And that a bereaved family can be healed and move on. But it doesn't work that way. The least interesting person in the court is the convicted woman. The story I want to understand is of the victim's family member who approached the convicted murderer.

    Normally, one expects a guilty plea as a necessary part of showing contrition, but in the normal case, the defendant is claiming not to have done the criminal act at all. In cases such as this, where the accused admits to having performed the act, but claims that it was an accident rather than intentional (probably lots of car accidents fall into this category) it seems to me to be perfectly consistent to be upset about the person you killed, remorseful, resolved to change your future behavior so there's no risk of a repeat and so on, whilst also claiming that it was an accident and not a crime.

  • Doc TorDoc Tor Hell Host
    Ohher wrote: »
    US SHOOTINGS REPORT 10/13/19

    Statistics for 10/12/2019
    Total mass shootings (4 or more casualties): 5: Brooklyn, 4 dead, 3 injured; Philadelphia, 1 dead, 3 injured; Eastpointe Michigan, 0 dead, 6 injured; Baltimore, 1 dead, 3 injured; Chicago, 4 dead, 1 injured.
    Total deaths: 28
    Total injuries: 82
    Children under 12 killed: 0
    Info courtesy of Gun Violence Archive.org.
    Any errors mine.

    Can we require the NRA to provide healthcare coverage to people injured by gun violence?

    How about the gun manufacturers? Surely someone is up for a class action?
  • Usually a class action against a manufacturer would be because the product either doesn't do what it's supposed to do or has some other nasty side effect. Gun manufacturers produce items that are supposed to kill ... they're doing what they're made for.
  • Our natural human response is to want closure and an ending which reassures us that the world is as we'd like it. That a good person committed a bad act, that our sense of things being reasonable in a sensible world can be restored by what we interpret as an apology. And that a bereaved family can be healed and move on. But it doesn't work that way. The least interesting person in the court is the convicted woman. The story I want to understand is of the victim's family member who approached the convicted murderer.

    Normally, one expects a guilty plea as a necessary part of showing contrition, but in the normal case, the defendant is claiming not to have done the criminal act at all. In cases such as this, where the accused admits to having performed the act, but claims that it was an accident rather than intentional (probably lots of car accidents fall into this category) it seems to me to be perfectly consistent to be upset about the person you killed, remorseful, resolved to change your future behavior so there's no risk of a repeat and so on, whilst also claiming that it was an accident and not a crime.
    Normally the accused's lawyer has a discussion or 17 with the prosecutor and they agree to a compromise. The first degree murder is reduced to second degree, for example. The difference, for example in Canada, is the first degree carries automatic 25 years, the second 10 years: specifics will vary across jurisdictions. If the person goes to trial at all, they've decided they have a good chance of not being convicted.

    To run the experiment properly, we'd have to have the accused in this case be acquitted in a parallel universe and then we'd see she felt all upset about who she killed. But if we run that as a thought experiment, don't we know that there's been enough of these sort of cases to show that it's rather different when not convicted?
  • OhherOhher Shipmate
    Usually a class action against a manufacturer would be because the product either doesn't do what it's supposed to do or has some other nasty side effect. Gun manufacturers produce items that are supposed to kill ... they're doing what they're made for.

    Well, there you go. 82 people shot and injured rather than killed. Bad aim on the shooter's part? Or major product malfunction?

    82 people facing substantial medical bills, perhaps time off work, even job loss as a result, perhaps permanent disability. . .



  • KarlLBKarlLB Shipmate
    Did you not know? These guns stop more people being shot. Honest they do...
  • If the person goes to trial at all, they've decided they have a good chance of not being convicted.

    Sure. I don't see that as being inconsistent with showing regret, remorse, and contrition when someone thinks they have injured or killed someone by accident.
  • OhherOhher Shipmate
    US SHOOTINGS REPORT 10/14/19

    Statistics for 10/13/2019
    Total mass shootings (4 or more casualties): 1: 6 injured.
    Total deaths: 32
    Total injuries: 81
    Children under 12 killed: 0
    Info courtesy of Gun Violence Archive.org.
    Any errors mine.
  • OhherOhher Shipmate
    CORRECTION

    US SHOOTINGS REPORT 10/14/19

    Statistics for 10/13/2019
    Total mass shootings (4 or more casualties): 2: 10 injured.

    US SHOOTINGS REPORT 10/15/19

    Statistics for 10/14/2019
    Total mass shootings (4 or more casualties): 1: 3 dead, 1 injured.
    Total deaths: 21
    Total injuries: 60
    Children under 12 killed: 2: 1 age 10 months, 1 age 4
    Info courtesy of Gun Violence Archive.org.
    Any errors mine.
  • OhherOhher Shipmate
    US SHOOTINGS REPORT 10/16/19

    Statistics for 10/15/2019
    Total mass shootings (4 or more casualties): 1: 3 dead, 1 injured.
    Total deaths: 26
    Total injuries: 43
    Children under 12 killed: 2: 1 age 10 months, 1 age 4
    Info courtesy of Gun Violence Archive.org.
    Any errors mine.
  • If the person goes to trial at all, they've decided they have a good chance of not being convicted.

    Sure. I don't see that as being inconsistent with showing regret, remorse, and contrition when someone thinks they have injured or killed someone by accident.

    "Accident". That's the problematic word here. It's not an accident to point a gun and pull the trigger. Any more than it is to run over a pedestrian, and to accidentally have drunk too much alcohol beforehand or been emotionally or otherwise distracted. These things are loved by professional arguers but hardly legitimate representations of how people actually operate.

    If you try to separate the parts of how people think and feel about such things, you're thinking like a lawyer which isn't how normal people think and feel. The normal is to know you killed someone, and to be focussed on mitigating or avoiding the consequences of the act. When you've found out that they disagree with your "accidentally when I wasn't meaning to" then your feelings are mixed at best. I would accept the regret and remorse if its sustained and if it stands up to challenge. But not otherwise.

    FWIW, I've ended up providing support to people on the victim side of violence in a playing it forward kind of way. Some of these people act angry, but it isn't really anger, it's immense sadness and sorrow. They see the remorse expressed expediently in the moment, and rightfully suspect it too. I think the players in a courtroom drama want to find a form of closure for themselves after hearing about awful things. These become "just so" stories which comfort them I think. And the media and public want the same sort of resolution. The other form of resolution is the demonisation of the convicted, which is sometime accurate, but in truth, usually equally not to the remorse story.
  • Golden Key wrote: »
    Tukai--

    Thanks for that post. I didn't follow the story closely; but I had a hard time believing her account, and believing that the man's door was unlocked or open. (Maybe in a college dorm, but an apartment building?) But your experiences make her account more plausible.
    That she walked into the wrong apartment accidentally? Yes. But the conviction is still correct.
    I've walked into the wrong flat, wrong office, wrong loo, etc. One realises, re-evaluates and leaves. I find it hard to beleive that his being black did not affect her reaction, especially in light of her racist text history.

  • OhherOhher Shipmate
    US SHOOTINGS REPORT 10/17/19

    Statistics for 10/16/2019
    Total mass shootings (4 or more casualties): 0
    Total deaths: 26
    Total injuries: 47
    Children under 12 killed: 0
    Info courtesy of Gun Violence Archive.org.
    Any errors mine.
  • I didn't say she shouldn't have been convicted. IIRC, I said I haven't really followed the case. Wrong door; tired cop with gun thinks she's at her place; she interprets the actual resident as an intruder and probably worse; she shoots him; she realizes she's in the wrong apt.; she realizes her dreadful mistake; she reportedly freaks out and calls her mom.

    (BTW, her mom testified that, as a child, the cop was molested by the mom's boyfriend, which could certainly cause an adult survivor have a strong startle response, freak out about an intruder--**especially** since male intruders are apt to be there for sexual assault, whatever else they're there for.; and even think they're back in the abusive situation. Sometimes, in the middle of sex, adult survivors of childhood sexual abuse can actually forget who they're with, and react as if they' with their abuser. Not good for anyone involved.)

    Anyway, as I said, I had a hard time believing the "accidental entry" bit, but Tukai's post made it more plausible.

    And I know that race is an issue in the case. But the cop *was* convicted, and sentenced to many years behind bars. Not as many as his family wanted, but even a conviction is much more than wrongly-shooting cops usually get.

    NOT in any way, shape, or form dismissing their pain or righteous anger.

    FWIW, IMHO, YMMV.
  • CrœsosCrœsos Shipmate
    Golden Key wrote: »
    I didn't say she shouldn't have been convicted. IIRC, I said I haven't really followed the case. Wrong door; tired cop with gun thinks she's at her place; she interprets the actual resident as an intruder and probably worse; she shoots him; she realizes she's in the wrong apt.; she realizes her dreadful mistake; she reportedly freaks out and calls her mom.

    It should be noted that the only evidence that this is what happened is the obviously self-interested testimony of the killer. There's a lot about they Guyger case that stinks, and the strongest aroma is police corruption.
    Dallas police said Tuesday that they have identified three suspects in the fatal shooting of a key witness in the trial of Amber Guyger, the white former officer convicted of murder for killing Botham Jean, her unarmed black neighbor.

    Joshua Brown was shot to death on Friday, 10 days after he testified against Guyger. The timing fueled rumors that his role in the trial had made him a target, with some alleging a conspiracy by local law enforcement.

    But on Tuesday, police emphatically denied the claims and identified three suspects in the shooting, men they said who traveled from Alexandria, La., to Dallas to buy drugs from Brown and then exchanged gunfire with him when the deal went south.

    Zerlina Maxwell walks us through reasons to be skeptical of this explanation.
    I’m actually offended by how patently ridiculous this Dallas PD story is.

    If Joshua Brown was a drug dealer, we woulda known already bc it would’ve come up during cross examination!

    Also, Louisiana has plenty of weed. Zero people are driving 4 hours for weed.

    Let's just say that just about everything associated with this case involves claims we wouldn't take seriously if they weren't made by someone in a blue uniform.
  • OhherOhher Shipmate
    US SHOOTINGS REPORT 10/18/19

    Statistics for 10/17/2019
    Total mass shootings (4 or more casualties): 0
    Total deaths: 32
    Total injuries: 46
    Children under 12 killed: 1, aged 2; playing with mother’s unsecured gun.
    Info courtesy of Gun Violence Archive.org.
    Any errors mine.
  • OhherOhher Shipmate
    US SHOOTINGS REPORT 10/19/19

    Statistics for 10/18/2019
    Total mass shootings (4 or more casualties): 0
    Total deaths: 23
    Total injuries: 56
    Children under 12 killed: 0
    Info courtesy of Gun Violence Archive.org.
    Any errors mine.
  • Golden Key wrote: »
    ....
    (BTW, her mom testified that, as a child, the cop was molested by the mom's boyfriend, which could certainly cause an adult survivor have a strong startle response, freak out about an intruder ...

    I'm thinking that's the sort of information that should have emerged during the recruitment process and disqualified the candidate. Assuming one was trying to recruit police officers to serve and protect, rather than trigger-happy over-reactive goons.

  • The military have a concept of “courageous restraint” which seems to pass the us police by. A lot of these shootings seem to come down to, for whatever reason - e.g. racism, poor lighting etc - the shooter thinks they *might* be in danger, and is not willing to accept any level of risk for any period of time to try to establish what is actually happening.

    If you are easily scared, and not willing to take physical risks in the course of your job, you should not be a police officer.
  • OhherOhher Shipmate
    US SHOOTINGS REPORT 10/20/19

    Statistics for 10/19/2019
    Total mass shootings (4 or more casualties): 2: 1 dead, 7 injured
    Total deaths: 28
    Total injuries: 64
    Children under 12 killed: 0
    Info courtesy of Gun Violence Archive.org.
    Any errors mine.
  • OhherOhher Shipmate
    Golden Key wrote: »
    ....
    (BTW, her mom testified that, as a child, the cop was molested by the mom's boyfriend, which could certainly cause an adult survivor have a strong startle response, freak out about an intruder ...

    I'm thinking that's the sort of information that should have emerged during the recruitment process and disqualified the candidate. Assuming one was trying to recruit police officers to serve and protect, rather than trigger-happy over-reactive goons.
    The military have a concept of “courageous restraint” which seems to pass the us police by. A lot of these shootings seem to come down to, for whatever reason - e.g. racism, poor lighting etc - the shooter thinks they *might* be in danger, and is not willing to accept any level of risk for any period of time to try to establish what is actually happening.

    If you are easily scared, and not willing to take physical risks in the course of your job, you should not be a police officer.

    I live (and teach) in a small, rural state in a country which (AFAICT) is obsessed with (a) celebrity; (b) crime and (c) the Savior/Hero/Superman model of social change.

    The students I encounter in my 2-year community college classes who plan to major in Criminal Justice (that is, intent on becoming cops or prison guards, for which a degree is needed from our state's Police Academy) typically enter at age 18, straight out of high school, and (if they complete the program in 2 years) are therefore still about 5 years shy of full cognitive maturity at graduation.

    Further, they enter stuffed to the gills with TV presentations about crime, crime-fighting, crime-commiting, crime-investigating, crime-planning, crime-prosecuting, etc. I recently (unwisely, it happens) "upped" my cable subscription to more channels in hope of securing a couple of viewing options that were not "talk" shows, sitcoms, sports, and a steady diet of crime dramas. A visitor from Mars would conclude that committing and solving crimes is what we chiefly devote our lives to here.

    In school, in history and social studies, they learn about a couple of dozen notable leaders who, unrealistically virtuous, noble, talented, brilliant, and courageous, single-handedly led this country out of English oppression into independence; out of slavery into freedom and equality (insert eyeroll here). There's little mention of labor organizing, of feminism, conscious-raising, or grass-roots mass organizing. There's little about civil rights conflict from mid-20th-century (though plenty about Nazi oppression of the Jews). Most of their high schools never even touch on Viet Nam. From looking at their texts and basic knowledge, one gets the idea that our entire history was produced by a few standup heroic men while the rest of the population hung about watching in awe.

    And celebrity now = success in their minds. Hold on; it gets worse.

    This is an open-admissions program. Pay your tuition, pass (however barely) your courses, and there you are, issued a badge and a firearm (provided you get hired). And our police departments all over the state are having the very devil of a time hiring staff.

  • Golden Key wrote: »
    ....
    (BTW, her mom testified that, as a child, the cop was molested by the mom's boyfriend, which could certainly cause an adult survivor have a strong startle response, freak out about an intruder ...

    I'm thinking that's the sort of information that should have emerged during the recruitment process and disqualified the candidate. Assuming one was trying to recruit police officers to serve and protect, rather than trigger-happy over-reactive goons.

    My gut reaction is that a great many women have experienced this kind of trauma and it would be better to train out that reaction than to disqualify so many candidates. Not one-time training but career-long training.

    But that's expensive. I find the set up of American policing hard to understand. There seem to be hundreds of different police departments across the country, then the FBI then the Sherrif, and then the CHP's.

    We have two police forces. One is the Federal Police for federal crimes and the State police for enforcing Victorian law (my state). The demarcation is mostly clear, however much Uni students try to argue that Vicpol has no jurisdiction on campuses because they are Federal institutions.

    My thought is that consolidated police forces might be able to better fund police training...
  • OhherOhher Shipmate
    US SHOOTINGS REPORT 10/21/19

    Statistics for 10/20/2019
    Total mass shootings (4 or more casualties): 1: 1 dead, 3 injured
    Total deaths: 31
    Total injuries: 88
    Children under 12 killed: 1, age 2
    Info courtesy of Gun Violence Archive.org.
    Any errors mine.
  • Simon Toad--

    No city/local police?
  • Not in Australia, no. State/Territory and Federal only.
  • OhherOhher Shipmate
    US SHOOTINGS REPORT 10/22/19

    Statistics for 10/21/2019
    Total mass shootings (4 or more casualties): 1: 4 injured
    Total deaths: 26
    Total injuries: 58
    Children under 12 killed: 1, age 6
    Info courtesy of Gun Violence Archive.org.
    Any errors mine.
  • Kittyville wrote: »
    Not in Australia, no. State/Territory and Federal only.
    So how are local situations handled?

  • state police force
  • Here in the US, it goes federal, state, county (that's the sheriffs), and city. Plus FBI, NSA, CIA (if they break the law and act within the US), and a bunch of other alphabet-salad names.

    I think people here might feel a bit invaded if their state handled local issues.
  • wow. There are more coppers than I thought :)
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