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Ecclesiantics 2018-23: That would be a liturgical matter - miscellaneous questions

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  • Qoheleth wrote: »
    I may have enquired about this before on Ye Olde Shippe, but can't find it.

    A number of the CoE's collects exhibit an apparently counter-intuitive shift between singular and plural verbs. Example, this week:

    God of Life,
    who for our redemption gave your only-begotten Son to the death of the cross,
    and by his glorious resurrection have delivered us from the power of our enemy
    ...

    In the second half of the relative clause, God is still One but has attracted a plural form of the verb.

    Am I missing some abstruse grammatical point here?

    "have" in this context is second person singular, as the subject of the verb, "who", is standing in for "you" (singular).
  • QohelethQoheleth Shipmate
    Qoheleth wrote: »
    I may have enquired about this before on Ye Olde Shippe, but can't find it.

    A number of the CoE's collects exhibit an apparently counter-intuitive shift between singular and plural verbs. Example, this week:

    God of Life,
    who for our redemption gave your only-begotten Son to the death of the cross,
    and by his glorious resurrection have delivered us from the power of our enemy
    ...

    In the second half of the relative clause, God is still One but has attracted a plural form of the verb.

    Am I missing some abstruse grammatical point here?

    "have" in this context is second person singular, as the subject of the verb, "who", is standing in for "you" (singular).

    Thanks - it must just be my intuition being skewed by that relative pronoun, then. If I were to rephrase it thus, it feels ok:

    God of Life,
    for our redemption you gave your only-begotten Son to the death of the cross,
    and by his glorious resurrection have delivered us from the power of our enemy
    ...
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    edited May 2022
    This isn’t exactly a liturgical matter; it is perhaps more an extra-liturgical matter, but I’m not quite sure where else to ask it. The most recent thread on clerical attire is—appropriately, given its age and the date of its last post—in Oblivion, and I don’t think this warrants a thread of its own. But I find myself a little bit fascinated by the cassock and fascia being worn by the Rt. Rev. Ian Greenshields, Moderator of the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland, which is currently underway in Edinburgh. A picture can be seen here. (More pictures can be found on this page.)

    It’s a double-breasted cassock, and it appears to be made of wool—possibly tweed or something similar, I can’t be sure. It looks fairly heavy (and hot, but maybe that’s just because it’s been 90° F/33° C here the last few days). The ends of the facia have a saltire and a brightly colored artistic panel.

    I’ve never seen anything quite like it. I’m wondering if anyone else has, or if anyone knows if there’s a story behind it.

  • Hmm. It looks quite seemly IMHO, but I think the part with the coloured panel and the saltire may be a matching scarf or stole.

    I'm sure Shipmates of the Kirk will be along soon!
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    . . . but I think the part with the coloured panel and the saltire may be a matching scarf or stole.
    I thought that at first, too, but it doesn’t hang from his neck or shoulders. Rather, it circles his waist, in the manner of a fascia.

  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited May 2022
    Ah - so it does. Your eyesight is better than mine, but, on a second look (enlarging the picture), yes, ISWYM.
  • kingsfoldkingsfold Shipmate
    Hmm. It looks quite seemly IMHO, but I think the part with the coloured panel and the saltire may be a matching scarf or stole.

    I'm sure Shipmates of the Kirk will be along soon!

    Paging @Cathscats, and/or @North East Quine

  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    Thanks, @kingsfold. I be should have thought of that.
  • ForthviewForthview Shipmate
    I was in the centre of Edinburgh on Saturday morning with a group od French finance experts. Directly opposite St Giles' is the French Consulate which was proudly flying the French Tricolore and the flag of the European Union. Unfortunately there was no evidence that the General Assembly was just beginning at that moment. I think,though I'm not sure , that the High Commissioner was unable to be present and therefore they was no procession up the Royal Mile.
    As people better informed than I will know the Moderator traditionally wore a black suit with breeches and lace around the collar. This was stopped a few years ago and now it is up to the Moderator as to what he or she wears. There is similarly no absolute dress code for Presbyterian ministers. It is,I think, very rare to see a Presbyterian minister wearing a form of the fascia but there you are.
    A few years ago I was working in a Church of Scotland care home and took part in a Communion service on the Third Sunday of Advent. The minister apologised to me afterwards for not wearing a purple stole. As she didn't have one she had worn a red stole.
    I told her afterwards that it didn't worry me in the slightest. As she tried to explain to another Presbyterian the possible significance of the colours,the other person said that they had just thought that it was 'something Christmassy'
  • North East QuineNorth East Quine Purgatory Host
    Not a clue, I'm afraid.
  • Nick TamenNick Tamen Shipmate
    edited May 2022
    Not a clue, I'm afraid.
    Ah well. Thanks just the same.

    FWIW, in some other pictures that have gone up, the cassock appears to be a nice, rich blue, not quite the blue gray I thought at first.
  • More colours. Someone brought a vase of red and white flowers into our (presbyterian) church last Sunday and was scolded by another person who said you can't do that in church - it's a symbol of death. The minister had never heard of such a thing and told the person to go ahead and place the flowers where she wanted them. Another minister pointed out to me that the whole point of having a cross in the church is that it symbolises overcoming death anyway. Does anyone here know what this is about?
  • More colours. Someone brought a vase of red and white flowers into our (presbyterian) church last Sunday and was scolded by another person who said you can't do that in church - it's a symbol of death. The minister had never heard of such a thing and told the person to go ahead and place the flowers where she wanted them. Another minister pointed out to me that the whole point of having a cross in the church is that it symbolises overcoming death anyway. Does anyone here know what this is about?

    It apear to be ancient Roman symbolism: http://www.rhm.uni-koeln.de/122/ThomasPL.pdf
  • The point of having a cross in the church is surely to remind us of Jesus' overcoming death (I omit any reference to Penal Substitutionary Atonement... :wink: ), but it needs to be an empty cross IMHO.

    I really don't have much time for all those crucifixes adorned with tortured bodies, but YMMV.
  • The point of having a cross in the church is surely to remind us of Jesus' overcoming death (I omit any reference to Penal Substitutionary Atonement... :wink: ), but it needs to be an empty cross IMHO.
    Which it’s always going to be in a Presbyterian church. :wink:

    Very interesting about the Romans and red and white. Just curious, @Stercus Tauri—is your scolding member an ancient Roman?

  • Nick Tamen wrote: »
    The point of having a cross in the church is surely to remind us of Jesus' overcoming death (I omit any reference to Penal Substitutionary Atonement... :wink: ), but it needs to be an empty cross IMHO.
    Which it’s always going to be in a Presbyterian church. :wink:

    Very interesting about the Romans and red and white. Just curious, @Stercus Tauri—is your scolding member an ancient Roman?

    Back in the days of Sarum Use in England (according to the Blessed Percy Dearmer), the liturgical colour for All Saints might be a mixture of red and white - some would have been martyrs (red) and others not martyrs (white). Either they wore red-and-white vestments, or maybe the priest wore red, and the deacon white, or vice-versa, IYSWIM.

    The Empty Cross is both seemly and edifying. Our Place has at least twenty representations of the Crucifixion, in various forms, spread around the building.
  • Qoheleth wrote: »
    Qoheleth wrote: »
    I may have enquired about this before on Ye Olde Shippe, but can't find it.

    A number of the CoE's collects exhibit an apparently counter-intuitive shift between singular and plural verbs. Example, this week:

    God of Life,
    who for our redemption gave your only-begotten Son to the death of the cross,
    and by his glorious resurrection have delivered us from the power of our enemy
    ...

    In the second half of the relative clause, God is still One but has attracted a plural form of the verb.

    Am I missing some abstruse grammatical point here?

    "have" in this context is second person singular, as the subject of the verb, "who", is standing in for "you" (singular).

    Thanks - it must just be my intuition being skewed by that relative pronoun, then. If I were to rephrase it thus, it feels ok:

    God of Life,
    for our redemption you gave your only-begotten Son to the death of the cross,
    and by his glorious resurrection have delivered us from the power of our enemy
    ...

    deleted
  • Nick Tamen wrote: »
    The point of having a cross in the church is surely to remind us of Jesus' overcoming death (I omit any reference to Penal Substitutionary Atonement... :wink: ), but it needs to be an empty cross IMHO.
    Which it’s always going to be in a Presbyterian church. :wink:

    Very interesting about the Romans and red and white. Just curious, @Stercus Tauri—is your scolding member an ancient Roman?

    Back in the days of Sarum Use in England (according to the Blessed Percy Dearmer), the liturgical colour for All Saints might be a mixture of red and white - some would have been martyrs (red) and others not martyrs (white). Either they wore red-and-white vestments, or maybe the priest wore red, and the deacon white, or vice-versa, IYSWIM.

    The Empty Cross is both seemly and edifying. Our Place has at least twenty representations of the Crucifixion, in various forms, spread around the building.

    We have an enormous very ugly mid-century crucifix stuck on the wall above the high altar. I loathe it.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited October 2022
    Dearmer himself condemned the proliferation of crucifixes in church, although IIRC he didn't insist that (say) the altar cross should necessarily be empty.

    OTOH, the San Damiano Cross is worthy of a place (but just the one place!) in any church:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Damiano_cross

    YMMV, of course. I've always preferred icons to pictures or statues, most of which (in Our Place, at any rate) are just so much tat.
  • I've never understood why some Protestant churches (often Anglican) omit any statues of Jesus or the saints, even a body of Christ on a crucifix, but are full of busts or even all-out statues of prominent congregation members (and I assume donors) dating to well after the Reformation.
  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    I've never understood why some Protestant churches (often Anglican) omit any statues of Jesus or the saints, even a body of Christ on a crucifix, but are full of busts or even all-out statues of prominent congregation members (and I assume donors) dating to well after the Reformation.
    Easy. It's because of reservations about idolatry if they are three dimensional representations of Jesus or a saint. Nobody is tempted or even likely to be tempted to imagine a statue of General Fortescue (1773-1842) late of the East India Company, is anything other than a statue.

  • Yes. The busts and memorials are not (usually) regarded as objects worthy of veneration...
  • Right. With statues, particularly of the saints, it’s about the “Thou shalt not bow down to them or worship them” part of the Second Commandment.

    As for crucifixes, it’s also tied up with views about the sacrifice of the Mass.

  • Many protestant denominations will use the empty cross as a way of saying Jesus is no longer in the grave. I went to one college which had a crucifix showing Jesus a-flamed.
    It was intended to show Jesus resurrected.
  • Alan29Alan29 Shipmate
    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    Right. With statues, particularly of the saints, it’s about the “Thou shalt not bow down to them or worship them” part of the Second Commandment.

    As for crucifixes, it’s also tied up with views about the sacrifice of the Mass.

    Hmm. I'm not a fan of statues etc, but I think the RCC would have strong views about people worshipping statues.
  • Alan29 wrote: »
    Nick Tamen wrote: »
    Right. With statues, particularly of the saints, it’s about the “Thou shalt not bow down to them or worship them” part of the Second Commandment.

    As for crucifixes, it’s also tied up with views about the sacrifice of the Mass.

    Hmm. I'm not a fan of statues etc, but I think the RCC would have strong views about people worshipping statues.
    Oh sure, absolutely. But the period of and after the Reformation was fairly reactive and wasn’t exactly known for acknowledgement, by either side, of subtlety or nuance, nor was there much willingness for presumptions of good faith or validity. It took centuries for some to move beyond that; some still haven’t.

  • Enoch wrote: »
    I've never understood why some Protestant churches (often Anglican) omit any statues of Jesus or the saints, even a body of Christ on a crucifix, but are full of busts or even all-out statues of prominent congregation members (and I assume donors) dating to well after the Reformation.
    Easy. It's because of reservations about idolatry if they are three dimensional representations of Jesus or a saint. Nobody is tempted or even likely to be tempted to imagine a statue of General Fortescue (1773-1842) late of the East India Company, is anything other than a statue.
    Yes. The busts and memorials are not (usually) regarded as objects worthy of veneration...

    Some of the statues, particularly those on ornate tombs, don't look very different from statues of saints that one is intended to venerate, like the monument to Newton in Westminster Abbey, and in denominations that for a good part of their history have avoided things like elevating the bread to be consecrated in the Eucharist in order to avoid arousing superstition among the less educated faithful, it seems odd that these statues in churches would be ok.

    I'm fine with statues of the saints and with venerating them, but then I'm RC. But I don't like statues of/about people in RC churches either that are there just because the person was famous or donated money. The medieval and renaissance effigies of kings, queens, and knights sleeping or kneeling in prayer aren't terrible, although I guess they are the same idea. Things got a little crazy in the Baroque, Neoclassical and later periods though, even in RC churches (I saw quite a few over the top monuments to famous people in RC churches in Italy). I know churches serve multiple functions: cemeteries, war memorials, national monuments, museums, but when the size or the number of the monuments to secular human achievement is too great I find it a bit distracting from prayer.
  • *bump*

    With Advent now well under way, I was wondering what Your Places might be doing in the way of extra or special services to mark the season. I know that Carol Services of various types are planned, if not already held, but I was thinking of perhaps less *Christmassy* events.

    Our Place is having a Holy Hour and Benediction each Tuesday in Advent, after the regular 530pm Mass, but last week there were only 3 people there - FatherInCharge, A N Other, and Jesus Himself (as Father put it!).

    I know that some churches have brought forward their Carol Service from 18th December to 11th December, to make way for The Solemn Feast Of The Holy Kickbladder, and that some are arranging *Blue Christmas* worship to cater for those for whom Christmas is not all Ho-Ho-Ho and Jingle Bells...all of which seems to me to offer an opportunity to eschew some of the more sentimental *Carols*, and throw in a few rather more objective Advent pieces of music instead.

    YMMV.

    Some houses in Our Town have been decorated in past years during Advent with blue and white lights - very appropriate colours IMHO - though I don't get out at night these days to see if these are still popular!





  • With Advent now well under way, I was wondering what Your Places might be doing in the way of extra or special services to mark the season. I know that Carol Services of various types are planned, if not already held, but I was thinking of perhaps less *Christmassy* events.
    Carol services such as I find described on the Ship are not something I’ve encountered IRL. They don’t seem to be a thing here. (And Christingle services are definitely unheard of here.)

    What is common to find here are Longest Night/Blue Christmas services. Ours is scheduled for December 21.

    Some houses in Our Town have been decorated in past years during Advent with blue and white lights - very appropriate colours IMHO - though I don't get out at night these days to see if these are still popular!
    If blue and white lights are seen here, the assumption is that they’re Hanukkah decorations. (Unless, perhaps, the lights are clearly meant to resemble icicles or snowflakes.)

  • We are having exposition for half an hour before the 6:00pm mass. We had Fr, server, sacristan, a.n.other and a rat.

    Mass attendance was 27 plus 5 under 16. The 6:00 O'clock attendance believe that the time to turn up is betweeen 5:55pm and 6:05 pm. Exposition is not encouraging them to be any earlier.

    Advent Carols worked well.
  • Last year we had an Advent Carol service.
    This year there is a Christmas Tree festival next weekend, which includes a concert one evening.
    Then there is the Advent window trail in one of the villages, all based on the nativity.
    Add a carol service in every one of the five villages and three funerals this coming week- busy time for some.
    The main service of lessons and carols will be on Sunday 18th, regardless of anything else kicking off on that date.
  • More colours. Someone brought a vase of red and white flowers into our (presbyterian) church last Sunday and was scolded by another person who said you can't do that in church - it's a symbol of death. The minister had never heard of such a thing and told the person to go ahead and place the flowers where she wanted them. Another minister pointed out to me that the whole point of having a cross in the church is that it symbolises overcoming death anyway. Does anyone here know what this is about?

    In the days when you could bring flowers into hospital, Nurses would never mix red and white because of the association with death. In extremis one flower of another colour would be added.
  • Well, well. I can't say I've ever heard of that before.

    Oddly (or perhaps not?) red and white vestments were sometimes mixed (according to some sources) around All Saints' Tide - red for the saints who were martyred, and white for those who were not. I'm not sure how the colours were separated - red for the priest, and white for the deacon? - or whether they were combined.
  • Red and white flowers are often used at weddings. White symbolizes innocence. Red symbolizes fiery passion.
  • Gramps49 wrote: »
    Red and white flowers are often used at weddings. White symbolizes innocence. Red symbolizes fiery passion.

    Not in the UK! But I understand the symbolism.
  • Well, well. I can't say I've ever heard of that before.

    Oddly (or perhaps not?) red and white vestments were sometimes mixed (according to some sources) around All Saints' Tide - red for the saints who were martyred, and white for those who were not. I'm not sure how the colours were separated - red for the priest, and white for the deacon? - or whether they were combined.

    Mrs M confirmed this for me. As an ex Nurse specialising in elderly and palliative care, she was very keen to set the right environment for very ill and dying people.

    Not only other nurses but also elderly visitors were very agin the red/white flower mix.

    FWIW when Mrs M has done displays in church red/white are never mixed on their own.
  • Yes, there is a superstition about red and white flowers. When I was growing up in the 70s, our church’s main flower arranger would sneak a yellow flower in at the back, if asked to do red and white flowers for a wedding.
  • Our "white" altar falls have a red trim. We have three altars that require falls. It is so that in high seasons (Christmas and Easter) we do not have to down grade to the red for martyrs.
  • Gill H wrote: »
    Yes, there is a superstition about red and white flowers. When I was growing up in the 70s, our church’s main flower arranger would sneak a yellow flower in at the back, if asked to do red and white flowers for a wedding.

    Yes, I’ve met with this superstition alive and well in church and hospital settings.
  • HeavenlyannieHeavenlyannie Shipmate
    edited December 2022
    I was a nurse in the UK in the late 1980s, 1990s (in Luton and then London and Kent) and then 2000s in Cambridge and have never heard of not mixing red and white flowers in any of these places. Presumably this was before then? Or a particular Christian slant, as I was not a Christian in the early years. Or regional?
  • DoublethinkDoublethink Admin, 8th Day Host
    I’ve not come across it before, just that white lilies are for a death.
  • NenyaNenya All Saints Host, Ecclesiantics & MW Host
    My mum and my aunt, who would both be over 100 if they were still alive, were nurses and both had that superstition about red and white flowers - according to my mum it was because they have "blood and bandages" connotations. I didn't know the superstition was still alive in hospitals and hadn't come across it at all in church settings.
  • Gramps49 wrote: »
    Red and white flowers are often used at weddings. White symbolizes innocence. Red symbolizes fiery passion.

    Not in the UK!
    Nor in my part of the US.

  • I was a nurse in the UK in the late 1980s, 1990s (in Luton and then London and Kent) and then 2000s in Cambridge and have never heard of not mixing red and white flowers in any of these places. Presumably this was before then? Or a particular Christian slant, as I was not a Christian in the early years. Or regional?

    I suspect it's a nursing thing. Our flower arranger did have a previous nursing background.
  • I had red and white flowers for my wedding bouquet and no one said anything against it.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited December 2022
    Some churches use pink vestments today - Advent 3 aka Gaudete Sunday (though I'm not sure why).

    Random sightings on the interweb include Our Place, a Certain Church in Edinburgh, and Uppsala Cathedral (Sweden). Uppsala only appears to have one pink chasuble, and one pink stole, so the other clergy wore blue stoles.

    Any others that Shipmates have seen, or know of?
  • Gaudete Sunday is the Sunday of Joy. Think of it this way. You have been waiting for a long time for the new King to arrive. The excitement is palpable. You cannot hide it. It reminds me of the now/not yet mode we find ourselves in.
  • Some churches use pink vestments today - Advent 3 aka Gaudete Sunday (though I'm not sure why).

    Random sightings on the interweb include Our Place, a Certain Church in Edinburgh, and Uppsala Cathedral (Sweden). Uppsala only appears to have one pink chasuble, and one pink stole, so the other clergy wore blue stoles.

    Any others that Shipmates have seen, or know of?

    Yes locally and the clergy asked the congregation to wear something pink too. A friends church in Wales went for bright pink vestments.
  • It is called by some 'Gaudete' Sunday because the Introit Antiphon for the Mass of the Third Sunday of Advent (in the Roman rite) begins with the words
    'Gaudete in Domino semper,iterum dico vobis gaudete' (Rejoice in the Lord always,again I say rejoice)
    Some Masses are referred popularly by the beginning of the Entrance Antiphon e.g. 'Requiem Mass' from the entrance Antiphon Requiem aeternam dona eis,Domine (Eternal rest grant unto them ,oh Lord)
    Or - and not too many people will know this one now ,nor will they care - Quasimodo Sunday for the First Sunday after Easter with the Entrance Antiphon Quasimodo geniti infantes (Just like new born infants )
  • Alan29 wrote: »
    Yes locally and the clergy asked the congregation to wear something pink too. A friends church in Wales went for bright pink vestments.

    Ours are sort of a salmon color, with dusty grayish-greenish orphreys. I call the look "salmon with dill."

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