Lent is now under way, as you are all (of course) aware, and I hope Your Places are observing the season properly. As well as the usual daily Mass, Our Place is having a weekly Holy Hour & Benediction (after the 530pm Mass on Tuesdays), and Stations of the Cross on Fridays at 730pm.
We used to have Stations at different times during Lent - after the Saturday morning Mass, for instance, or after our (then) monthly Evensong - but FatherInCharge prefers to keep to the same day and time each week.
I expect our usual purple vestments are being worn, but I see from various online Lutheran services that, in Sweden at any rate, a rather fetching blue seems to be popular. This isn't a colour often found in the UK, as far as I know, but maybe you know of a Place which does have such things? FWIW, we have a lovely old chasuble and stole in dark (Sarum) blue, which is used on one Sunday in Advent - it's rather frail, but Madam Sacristan likes it to have an outing now and then.
I expect our usual purple vestments are being worn, but I see from various online Lutheran services that, in Sweden at any rate, a rather fetching blue seems to be popular. This isn't a colour often found in the UK, as far as I know, but maybe you know of a Place which does have such things?
Blue is often seen in American Lutheran, Episcopal and United Methodist (and less often, in my experience, Presbyterian) churches in Advent, but I don’t think I’ve ever seen it during Lent.
Lenten array, or paraments inspired by Lenten array, is sometimes seen here, particularly and not surprisingly in Episcopal churches. Our (Presbyterian) place has Lenten paraments made of a plain, off-white material with crossing (off-center) bands of purple and crimson, both edged in black.
I expect our usual purple vestments are being worn, but I see from various online Lutheran services that, in Sweden at any rate, a rather fetching blue seems to be popular. This isn't a colour often found in the UK, as far as I know, but maybe you know of a Place which does have such things?
Blue is often seen in American Lutheran, Episcopal and United Methodist (and less often, in my experience, Presbyterian) churches in Advent, but I don’t think I’ve ever seen it during Lent.
Lenten array, or paraments inspired by Lenten array, is sometimes seen here, particularly and not surprisingly in Episcopal churches. Our (Presbyterian) place has Lenten paraments made of a plain, off-white material with crossing (off-center) bands of purple and crimson, both edged in black.
Thanks! Yes, blue in Advent is not entirely unknown on this side of the Pond, but I'd not seen it used anywhere before in Lent. Of course, Lutheran churches are not AFAIK bound by any particular rules as to liturgical colours, whereas High Church Anglican parishes tend to follow the (IMHO) rather rigid Roman custom.
The Lenten array you describe is not unknown here in the UK, either, and in fact our local Cathedral uses something similar. IIRC, the Blessed Percy Dearmer recommended it, back in The Parson's Handbook days.
FWIW, I find the blue much more pleasing to the eye than the sometimes lurid purple, but that, of course, is a purely subjective opinion.
FWIW, I find the blue much more pleasing to the eye than the sometimes lurid purple, but that, of course, is a purely subjective opinion.
Indeed, my experience is that with purple, green, red (crimson/scarlet) and blue vestments and paraments, much depends on the exact shade of purple, green, red or blue.
True. Our Place's purple (newish - bought about 6 years ago) is a tad too bright IMHO, though our green (also bought at the same time) is a pleasing shade - rather more olive than grass, IYSWIM.
Purple here right through including Laetare Sunday (pp would rather chew his own leg off than be seen in pink.)
I haven't seen statues shrouded in RC places since Vat 2. I always thought it looked a bit "Scooby-Doo." However we have been doing a bit of a recruitment drive for servers and there are whispers of having incense on high days. That will not please people with breathing difficulties at all.
I went to St Ansgar, Uppsala, this morning, and also to Larsmo (Finland), where both churches were using very seemly blue vestments...
Shrouded statues are a Thing at Our Place, where Madam Sacristan insists that every crucifix (we have dozens), every image (we have loads), and every big oil painting (we have five, plus the reredos in the All Souls chapel) MUST BE COVERED UP IN PURPLE from Passion Sunday (Lent 5) until Easter Eve.
This involves a whole morning's work, and much moving about of stepladders - but to what purpose? I've never been able to quite see the point of it all, and I doubt if anyone would notice if it wasn't done one year...
Should a Church Warden, whose Vicar has no use for vestments ( nor robes- on most occasions) and has disbanded the choir, take steps to sell them?
I guess it is rare to reinstate a robed choir, once it has been disbanded, but a future incumbent may well wish to wear vestments.
I have a feeling that ownership of vestments etc. rests with the PCC so their agreement should be sought.
I think also the acquisition or disposal of vestments may require a formal permit from the Archdeacon, or possibly a Faculty. This may also apply to choir robes.
The Churchwarden would be well advised to consult the Archdeacon and/or the DAC, otherwise they risk getting into an expensive legal mess.
My previous church was liturgical Presbyterian and in the 1970s had a minister who insisted that the flowers were the colour of the season. This used to run the flower arranging team spare during Lent. Advent was a week or two at best but Lent is six weeks of purple. Pity none of them checked with the more liturgical traditions. They could have had six weeks holiday instead.
We are going to start the annual battle about when the veiling gets done or more precisely, when the scaffolding is brought to church. Once that is resolved prep for Holy Week can start in earnest. St Obscures even covers the reredos. By Good Friday there is no Holy water out.
I doubt it’s a shock that veiling statues is not a thing at our Presbyterian place, as there are, not surprisingly, no statues to veil. (I do know of one or two Presbyterian churches that actually do have a few statues as part of a reredos.)
But we have been known to veil the stained glass windows in the nave. They are rectangular, maybe 8ish feet by 3+ feet, and the practice has been to gradually veil them with a muslin-like material during Lent, starting at the back of the nave and working toward the front each week. The material lets light and some muted color through, but no actual designs can be identified.
We haven’t done it since coming back to church after the pandemic. I think last year, the feeling was that people had already been deprived of seeing the windows for such a long time.
As the relevant day to do it is also the Annunciation this year, Fr Duck's plan this year is to have the service for that, feed people something like bacon sandwiches, then get them to help with all the veiling, in the hope there might be more helpers than usual. Thankfully there's no reredos behind the high altar, just a curtain.
As we don't have access to scaffolding the rood always stays uncovered, and I don't think they can do the Lady Chapel wall carvings either, but we've got plenty of other statues and icons.
Much the same at Our Place, as the 10am Mass will probably be attended by members of our Walsingham Cell, who can then be pressganged asked nicely to help with the veiling...
Should a Church Warden, whose Vicar has no use for vestments ( nor robes- on most occasions) and has disbanded the choir, take steps to sell them?
I guess it is rare to reinstate a robed choir, once it has been disbanded, but a future incumbent may well wish to wear vestments.
The vestments should be listed in the terrier & inventory & may need a faculty to authorise their removal from the church.
At one of my churches the choir turn to face the altar as they sing the glory be to the father etc at the end of the psalms, canticles & in the responses at evensong. I've never seen it anywhere else. Is it a bizarre local custom or is there precedent for it elsewhere?
At one of my churches the choir turn to face the altar as they sing the glory be to the father etc at the end of the psalms, canticles & in the responses at evensong. I've never seen it anywhere else. Is it a bizarre local custom or is there precedent for it elsewhere?
I have occasionally seen it at (not particularly high) Episcopal churches in the American South, often with a bow at the “to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost/Spirit.”
At one of my churches the choir turn to face the altar as they sing the glory be to the father etc at the end of the psalms, canticles & in the responses at evensong. I've never seen it anywhere else. Is it a bizarre local custom or is there precedent for it elsewhere?
I'm sure that I saw this done at Evensong when I visited Tewkesbury Abbey a few years ago.
Should a Church Warden, whose Vicar has no use for vestments ( nor robes- on most occasions) and has disbanded the choir, take steps to sell them?
I guess it is rare to reinstate a robed choir, once it has been disbanded, but a future incumbent may well wish to wear vestments.
The vestments should be listed in the terrier & inventory & may need a faculty to authorise their removal from the church.
At one of my churches the choir turn to face the altar as they sing the glory be to the father etc at the end of the psalms, canticles & in the responses at evensong. I've never seen it anywhere else. Is it a bizarre local custom or is there precedent for it elsewhere?
When I was a chorister we would face (liturgical) east for the creed and to bow before processing out but that was about it.
Should a Church Warden, whose Vicar has no use for vestments ( nor robes- on most occasions) and has disbanded the choir, take steps to sell them?
I guess it is rare to reinstate a robed choir, once it has been disbanded, but a future incumbent may well wish to wear vestments.
The vestments should be listed in the terrier & inventory & may need a faculty to authorise their removal from the church.
At one of my churches the choir turn to face the altar as they sing the glory be to the father etc at the end of the psalms, canticles & in the responses at evensong. I've never seen it anywhere else. Is it a bizarre local custom or is there precedent for it elsewhere?
Not sure about the Responses at Evensong, but it's certainly the custom at the end of the Psalms and Canticles in our Cathedral, as it was in the Tin Tabernacle of my Youth.
BTW, as you say, vestments should be listed in the terrier. Mind you, some clergy (probably not the one referred to) possess, and use, vestments which are their own personal property - our FatherInCharge has a most beautiful gold festal chasuble - and matching cope! - which I believe were given to him by parishioners of a previous incumbency.
BTW, as you say, vestments should be listed in the terrier. Mind you, some clergy (probably not the one referred to) possess, and use, vestments which are their own personal property - our FatherInCharge has a most beautiful gold festal chasuble - and matching cope! - which I believe were given to him by parishioners of a previous incumbency.
A chasuble!!!!! Surely such a Romish bit of cloth is barred by diocesan regulations........
@Bishops Finger Vestments should be itemised in the Inventory. The Terrier is the list of land - Glebe, area around church halls, etc, plus the churchyard.
@Bishops Finger Vestments should be itemised in the Inventory. The Terrier is the list of land - Glebe, area around church halls, etc, plus the churchyard.
BTW, as you say, vestments should be listed in the terrier. Mind you, some clergy (probably not the one referred to) possess, and use, vestments which are their own personal property - our FatherInCharge has a most beautiful gold festal chasuble - and matching cope! - which I believe were given to him by parishioners of a previous incumbency.
A chasuble!!!!! Surely such a Romish bit of cloth is barred by diocesan regulations........
Not in England - see the Ornaments Rubric of 1549...
@Bishops Finger Vestments should be itemised in the Inventory. The Terrier is the list of land - Glebe, area around church halls, etc, plus the churchyard.
I stand corrected, though IIRC I've only ever heard the list of things belonging to the parish referred to as the *Terrier*. Maybe it was being used as a kind of shorthand?
At one of my churches the choir turn to face the altar as they sing the glory be to the father etc at the end of the psalms, canticles & in the responses at evensong. I've never seen it anywhere else. Is it a bizarre local custom or is there precedent for it elsewhere?
I haven't seen this so much for the Gloria Patri (more typically a bow), but I've seen it done for the recitation of a creed.
At one of my churches the choir turn to face the altar as they sing the glory be to the father etc at the end of the psalms, canticles & in the responses at evensong. I've never seen it anywhere else. Is it a bizarre local custom or is there precedent for it elsewhere?
I haven't seen this so much for the Gloria Patri (more typically a bow), but I've seen it done for the recitation of a creed.
I’ve known some liturgical sticklers who say this should only be done for the Apostles’ Creed—which in prayer book practice would mean mainly at Morning Prayer and Evening Prayer—as it derives from the practice of facing (liturgical) west for the renunciations at baptism and then turning and facing (liturgical) east to affirm faith in Christ, for which the Apostles’ Creed was traditionally used.
BTW, as you say, vestments should be listed in the terrier. Mind you, some clergy (probably not the one referred to) possess, and use, vestments which are their own personal property - our FatherInCharge has a most beautiful gold festal chasuble - and matching cope! - which I believe were given to him by parishioners of a previous incumbency.
A chasuble!!!!! Surely such a Romish bit of cloth is barred by diocesan regulations........
Not in England - see the Ornaments Rubric of 1549...
BTW, as you say, vestments should be listed in the terrier. Mind you, some clergy (probably not the one referred to) possess, and use, vestments which are their own personal property - our FatherInCharge has a most beautiful gold festal chasuble - and matching cope! - which I believe were given to him by parishioners of a previous incumbency.
A chasuble!!!!! Surely such a Romish bit of cloth is barred by diocesan regulations........
Not in England - see the Ornaments Rubric of 1549...
So I suppose this isn't exactly liturgical in nature but is still an Eccles question - does anyone know of any efforts by churches to reach hikikomori (a Japanese term used to describe social recluses, particularly young people, in Japan and South Korea - the Japanese term is used across both countries) and any research on this? Christianity is extremely culturally prominent in South Korea and unusually for East Asia is strongly Protestant in nature, with Methodism and Presbyterianism being most common.
So I suppose this isn't exactly liturgical in nature but is still an Eccles question - does anyone know of any efforts by churches to reach hikikomori (a Japanese term used to describe social recluses, particularly young people, in Japan and South Korea - the Japanese term is used across both countries) and any research on this? Christianity is extremely culturally prominent in South Korea and unusually for East Asia is strongly Protestant in nature, with Methodism and Presbyterianism being most common.
Just picked up on this.
For clarification, are you referring to efforts to reach people outside the usual Sunday service(s)? It could be said that anyone, however reclusive, could simply walk into a service, and (hopefully) be welcomed in a manner appropriate to their need...yes, yes, I know - that often doesn't happen...
Our local charismatic-evangelical C of E parish has a long list of *outreach* activities, though I'm not sure if any fit this bill, so to speak.
Is there any evidence that this is a growing problem in the UK?
Yes I mean outreach outside of regular Sunday services, or establishing new services as a response.
There doesn't seem to be any sign that this particular trend is picking up in the UK as it's driven by some particular Japanese and Korean cultural factors, and the expat populations of those nationalities in the UK are very small. Japan and Korea have *very* high suicide rates - some of the highest in the world, Korea is often 3rd worldwide depending on the data being used - and a lot of societal and institutional prejudice against mental health problems, alongside very long study and work hours (and the Korean school system preduces high grades but is a brutal system). In Korea for instance you are legally obligated to declare any mental illness and any medication taken on job application forms, so people with mental health problems often struggle to find work which makes things worse.
Yes I mean outreach outside of regular Sunday services, or establishing new services as a response.
There doesn't seem to be any sign that this particular trend is picking up in the UK as it's driven by some particular Japanese and Korean cultural factors, and the expat populations of those nationalities in the UK are very small. Japan and Korea have *very* high suicide rates - some of the highest in the world, Korea is often 3rd worldwide depending on the data being used - and a lot of societal and institutional prejudice against mental health problems, alongside very long study and work hours (and the Korean school system preduces high grades but is a brutal system). In Korea for instance you are legally obligated to declare any mental illness and any medication taken on job application forms, so people with mental health problems often struggle to find work which makes things worse.
Thanks for clarifying. It's not a problem I'm particularly aware of in the UK, but I'm somewhat *out of the loop* these days.
Our Place does have a few teenagers in the congregation, so I suppose they're more likely to come across people of their own age in what sounds like a dire situation.
I guess a trite and over-simplistic answer would be for *social recluses* to be somehow contacted/befriended by people of their own age group, rather than by an evangelistic effort from above, IYSWIM.
Comments
We used to have Stations at different times during Lent - after the Saturday morning Mass, for instance, or after our (then) monthly Evensong - but FatherInCharge prefers to keep to the same day and time each week.
I expect our usual purple vestments are being worn, but I see from various online Lutheran services that, in Sweden at any rate, a rather fetching blue seems to be popular. This isn't a colour often found in the UK, as far as I know, but maybe you know of a Place which does have such things? FWIW, we have a lovely old chasuble and stole in dark (Sarum) blue, which is used on one Sunday in Advent - it's rather frail, but Madam Sacristan likes it to have an outing now and then.
From Uppsala Cathedral - jump to about 15 minutes in for a good view of the chasuble...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2lFTpY1Myk&t=3927s
Lenten array, or paraments inspired by Lenten array, is sometimes seen here, particularly and not surprisingly in Episcopal churches. Our (Presbyterian) place has Lenten paraments made of a plain, off-white material with crossing (off-center) bands of purple and crimson, both edged in black.
Thanks! Yes, blue in Advent is not entirely unknown on this side of the Pond, but I'd not seen it used anywhere before in Lent. Of course, Lutheran churches are not AFAIK bound by any particular rules as to liturgical colours, whereas High Church Anglican parishes tend to follow the (IMHO) rather rigid Roman custom.
The Lenten array you describe is not unknown here in the UK, either, and in fact our local Cathedral uses something similar. IIRC, the Blessed Percy Dearmer recommended it, back in The Parson's Handbook days.
FWIW, I find the blue much more pleasing to the eye than the sometimes lurid purple, but that, of course, is a purely subjective opinion.
I haven't seen statues shrouded in RC places since Vat 2. I always thought it looked a bit "Scooby-Doo." However we have been doing a bit of a recruitment drive for servers and there are whispers of having incense on high days. That will not please people with breathing difficulties at all.
Shrouded statues are a Thing at Our Place, where Madam Sacristan insists that every crucifix (we have dozens), every image (we have loads), and every big oil painting (we have five, plus the reredos in the All Souls chapel) MUST BE COVERED UP IN PURPLE from Passion Sunday (Lent 5) until Easter Eve.
This involves a whole morning's work, and much moving about of stepladders - but to what purpose? I've never been able to quite see the point of it all, and I doubt if anyone would notice if it wasn't done one year...
I guess it is rare to reinstate a robed choir, once it has been disbanded, but a future incumbent may well wish to wear vestments.
I think also the acquisition or disposal of vestments may require a formal permit from the Archdeacon, or possibly a Faculty. This may also apply to choir robes.
The Churchwarden would be well advised to consult the Archdeacon and/or the DAC, otherwise they risk getting into an expensive legal mess.
My previous church was liturgical Presbyterian and in the 1970s had a minister who insisted that the flowers were the colour of the season. This used to run the flower arranging team spare during Lent. Advent was a week or two at best but Lent is six weeks of purple. Pity none of them checked with the more liturgical traditions. They could have had six weeks holiday instead.
We are going to start the annual battle about when the veiling gets done or more precisely, when the scaffolding is brought to church. Once that is resolved prep for Holy Week can start in earnest. St Obscures even covers the reredos. By Good Friday there is no Holy water out.
But we have been known to veil the stained glass windows in the nave. They are rectangular, maybe 8ish feet by 3+ feet, and the practice has been to gradually veil them with a muslin-like material during Lent, starting at the back of the nave and working toward the front each week. The material lets light and some muted color through, but no actual designs can be identified.
We haven’t done it since coming back to church after the pandemic. I think last year, the feeling was that people had already been deprived of seeing the windows for such a long time.
As we don't have access to scaffolding the rood always stays uncovered, and I don't think they can do the Lady Chapel wall carvings either, but we've got plenty of other statues and icons.
The vestments should be listed in the terrier & inventory & may need a faculty to authorise their removal from the church.
At one of my churches the choir turn to face the altar as they sing the glory be to the father etc at the end of the psalms, canticles & in the responses at evensong. I've never seen it anywhere else. Is it a bizarre local custom or is there precedent for it elsewhere?
When I was a chorister we would face (liturgical) east for the creed and to bow before processing out but that was about it.
Not sure about the Responses at Evensong, but it's certainly the custom at the end of the Psalms and Canticles in our Cathedral, as it was in the Tin Tabernacle of my Youth.
BTW, as you say, vestments should be listed in the terrier. Mind you, some clergy (probably not the one referred to) possess, and use, vestments which are their own personal property - our FatherInCharge has a most beautiful gold festal chasuble - and matching cope! - which I believe were given to him by parishioners of a previous incumbency.
A chasuble!!!!! Surely such a Romish bit of cloth is barred by diocesan regulations........
Every day is a school day.
Not in England - see the Ornaments Rubric of 1549...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ornaments_Rubric
I stand corrected, though IIRC I've only ever heard the list of things belonging to the parish referred to as the *Terrier*. Maybe it was being used as a kind of shorthand?
I haven't seen this so much for the Gloria Patri (more typically a bow), but I've seen it done for the recitation of a creed.
I know - it's only banned here in Sydney and a couple of dioceses dependent on it. I think you missed my sarcasm.
Sorry, I'm afraid I had a senior moment, and didn't really read your post appropriately.
Just picked up on this.
For clarification, are you referring to efforts to reach people outside the usual Sunday service(s)? It could be said that anyone, however reclusive, could simply walk into a service, and (hopefully) be welcomed in a manner appropriate to their need...yes, yes, I know - that often doesn't happen...
Our local charismatic-evangelical C of E parish has a long list of *outreach* activities, though I'm not sure if any fit this bill, so to speak.
Is there any evidence that this is a growing problem in the UK?
There doesn't seem to be any sign that this particular trend is picking up in the UK as it's driven by some particular Japanese and Korean cultural factors, and the expat populations of those nationalities in the UK are very small. Japan and Korea have *very* high suicide rates - some of the highest in the world, Korea is often 3rd worldwide depending on the data being used - and a lot of societal and institutional prejudice against mental health problems, alongside very long study and work hours (and the Korean school system preduces high grades but is a brutal system). In Korea for instance you are legally obligated to declare any mental illness and any medication taken on job application forms, so people with mental health problems often struggle to find work which makes things worse.
Thanks for clarifying. It's not a problem I'm particularly aware of in the UK, but I'm somewhat *out of the loop* these days.
Our Place does have a few teenagers in the congregation, so I suppose they're more likely to come across people of their own age in what sounds like a dire situation.
I guess a trite and over-simplistic answer would be for *social recluses* to be somehow contacted/befriended by people of their own age group, rather than by an evangelistic effort from above, IYSWIM.