Platform 9 and 4/4: A New Railway Appreciation Thread

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  • Indeed - even the O1s weren't allowed past Rolvenden...
  • A theme that carried on into preservation. The Northiam extension was originally relaid with 75lb rail from a Kent coal mine and there was only one diesel shunter that could use it. I suspect that was to allow works trains past Wittersham Road, as I recall we met one and hitched a lift.
  • AIUI, it wasn't so much the track that was flimsy, but the bridges - at least, on the original section of the line (Robertsbridge - Rolvenden).

    Mr Austen, BR, and the Preservation Society, all made improvements. Perhaps one day we shall see a Bulleid Pacific steaming up Tenterden bank...
  • sionisaissionisais Shipmate
    The Civil Engineer’s Department is the enemy of every Locomotive Designer ever born. Except those rare ones who have worked in both departments(I believe there have been three in all human history).
  • A classic example of this clash must be the Highland Railway incident of 1915.

    Frederick G Smith designed some big 4-6-0s - the River Class - and had six of them built by Hawthorn Leslie. He omitted, however, to consult the Civil Engineer as regards axle loading, and the CE flatly refused to allow them to work anywhere on the Highland system. The Caledonian Railway bought them, and used them for many years - they were perfectly good engines...

    Smith resigned forthwith, but lived on for many years - he died in 1956.

  • ETA:

    The Wikipedia article on the Rivers - as you can see, they were quite impressive engines:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highland_Railway_River_class

    If the Caledonian Railway paid only £500 each for six brand-new locomotives, that was a real bargain!
  • Wesley JWesley J Circus Host
    It would also bend his flimsy track - 20 tons axle loading compared with just over 10 tons for a Terrier.

    Bend it like Britannia!
  • Wesley JWesley J Circus Host
    ETA:

    The Wikipedia article on the Rivers - as you can see, they were quite impressive engines:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highland_Railway_River_class

    If the Caledonian Railway paid only £500 each for six brand-new locomotives, that was a real bargain!

    Hammer blow! According to Wiki, they would indeed have been able to run on some lines, taking into account this then less-understood effect. Interesting.
  • Wesley JWesley J Circus Host
    edited August 6
    Praps the designer was kind of a visionary after all, and did understand some advanced physics for machining.
  • Maybe he was, but his unfortunately cold relationship with the Civil Engineer deprived the Highland Railway of a fine locomotive, at least until LMS days. Wiki tells us that the last one went in 1946.

    Smith doesn't seem to have designed any other locomotive for the Highland, or anyone else, which is a pity IMHO.
  • According to Phil Atkins in data from the 1928 Report of the Bridge Stress Committee that he quotes in The Scottish 4-6-0 Classes p87, the Rivers had one of the lowest combined axle loadings (hammerblow plus static loading) of any of the classes analysed; 21.95 tons at 6 rev/sec. The design of the Rivers has been compared to the LSWR H15, which came out at 30.35 tons. The Highland locomotives all showed lower values than any of the Caledonian 4-6-0s.
  • SighthoundSighthound Shipmate
    This may be a tad off-topic, but may I take this chance to recommend the novels of Stephen Done?

    These are railway detective stories centred around the former Great Central in the 1940s and 1950s. Very entertaining, although they are mainly located around that part of the company's line south of Annesley Junction. (The least interesting bit, in my biased opinion.)

    I have started reading through them with much enjoyment. A lot of the locos get a mention.
  • I tale it that the details of railway working and infrastructure are broadly accurate?
  • RockyRogerRockyRoger Shipmate
    Mrs RR and I spent a most pleasant day going back and forth on the North Norfolk Railway. Sheringham to Holt via Weybourne and back. The stations have been splendidly restored, volunteer staff were in proper uniform and our ticket was authentically clipped on the train. There were model railways at Holt and Weybourne and the buffet (not inauthentic!) wasn't half bad.
    The only disappointment was that, because of the drought, we were hauled by a 1960's diesel engine. There was, however a working steam loco in the station and many more in the sidings.
    Well worth a visit if you're in the area.
  • Baptist TrainfanBaptist Trainfan Shipmate
    edited August 9
    I'm old enough to remember seeing, when on a school field trip, the NNR at Sheringham before it had opened! My late mother lived in the area so I knew it well, not been there recently though.
  • EnochEnoch Shipmate
    RockyRoger wrote: »
    Mrs RR and I spent a most pleasant day going back and forth on the North Norfolk Railway. Sheringham to Holt via Weybourne and back. The stations have been splendidly restored, volunteer staff were in proper uniform and our ticket was authentically clipped on the train. There were model railways at Holt and Weybourne and the buffet (not inauthentic!) wasn't half bad.
    The only disappointment was that, because of the drought, we were hauled by a 1960's diesel engine. There was, however a working steam loco in the station and many more in the sidings.
    Well worth a visit if you're in the area.
    Not sure that to be 'authentic' the buffet should have attained even the level of 'wasn't half bad'. Back in the day when all trains were steam (and CofE services all 1662) railway catering was still stuck in the immediate post-rationing mindset, when service industries had ingested the principle that they were doing you a tremendous favour, for which you should be unutterably grateful, to provide you with anything at all.

    It was best to stick to the Lyons Individual Fruit Pies, where at least you knew what you were going to get.

  • RockyRogerRockyRoger Shipmate
    Enoch wrote: »
    RockyRoger wrote: »
    Mrs RR and I spent a most pleasant day going back and forth on the North Norfolk Railway. Sheringham to Holt via Weybourne and back. The stations have been splendidly restored, volunteer staff were in proper uniform and our ticket was authentically clipped on the train. There were model railways at Holt and Weybourne and the buffet (not inauthentic!) wasn't half bad.
    The only disappointment was that, because of the drought, we were hauled by a 1960's diesel engine. There was, however a working steam loco in the station and many more in the sidings.
    Well worth a visit if you're in the area.
    Not sure that to be 'authentic' the buffet should have attained even the level of 'wasn't half bad'. Back in the day when all trains were steam (and CofE services all 1662) railway catering was still stuck in the immediate post-rationing mindset, when service industries had ingested the principle that they were doing you a tremendous favour, for which you should be unutterably grateful, to provide you with anything at all.

    It was best to stick to the Lyons Individual Fruit Pies, where at least you knew what you were going to get.

    You're right - I meant to type ''not authentic". Oh dear, an aged and hot brain, I'm afraid!
  • I recall a not-at-all inspiring Thompson buffet car on the West Highland line in 1977.
  • Bishops FingerBishops Finger Shipmate
    edited August 9
    OTOH, I recall a very tasty breakfast (two enormous kippers) on the morning train to Oban a few years earlier...I think the restaurant car was a standard Mk 1.

    'More Toast, sir? More Coffee?'

    :yum:

    That Thompson car must have been one of the last such coaches in service.
  • Baptist TrainfanBaptist Trainfan Shipmate
    edited August 9
    Indeed so - originally built in 1948 for the "Flying Scotsman".

    PS The TfW "premier services" between Cardiff and Manchester/Holyhead serve proper food in 1st class: https://tfw.wales/ways-to-travel/rail/food-and-drink/first-class-dining/first-class. They also do snacks, brought to one's seat.
  • RockyRogerRockyRoger Shipmate
    The best railway food we ever had was on the Ghan when we went from Adelaide to Alice Springs. A wonderful trip!
  • Hmm ... another accident, this time near Lewes. Three carriages on their side but, we're told no fatalities or serious injuries. I don't think the train would have been going very fast. The aerial view shows a section of twisted track just behind the train, so one wonders if this was heat related: buckling rails and/or embankment shrinkage?
  • Apparently and sadly two people have been badly hurt.
  • Here's the Guardian's report:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2026/aug/13/train-derailment-east-sussex-closes-several-routes-lewes

    My first reaction was to think that track distortion was the cause, but it's too early to say.
  • Wesley JWesley J Circus Host
    edited August 14
    Sadness. <votive> for all involved!

    In other news, if there was a crime scene, an N-gauging police inspector can be found here.

    ETA: While aforementioned inspector's Peugeot 403 isn't available, the Peugeot 404 could be used as a suitable replacement. :)
  • There's something bothering me about that figure...
  • Meanwhile, another derailment, this time in Essex:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2026/aug/14/train-derails-near-essex-town-of-wickford

    With two coaches off the rails, but upright, there will hopefully be no injuries.
  • ETA:

    That link has been updated by the Guardian, and yes, there are no reported injuries.
  • I've tried via Google Maps to identify the location. If I've got it right, it appears to be on plain track which suggests a track or bogie defect. Glad that it's not been more serious, but worrying.
  • Perhaps the current extreme heat is having an effect on track which would, in normal weather, be quite OK?
  • That's my suspicion - which, when you think about it, is very worrying. CWR is pre-stressed for 27 degrees but in very hot weather it can get up as high as 40 or more degrees and railjoints (which pose their own problems vide Hither Green) no longer exist to take up the expansion. The rails are therefore in compression and only held in place by the baseplates, sleepers and ballast.
  • Stercus TauriStercus Tauri Shipmate
    edited August 14
    This a fairly complex field of study, and I am no expert! However, there are numerous factors to consider. I am not sure to what extent rail anchors (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_fastening_system) are used in the UK, but in North America in areas of wide temperature variation, they are commonly used to resist creep as well as expansion. The effect of creep is often important, causing the rail to stretch, or rarely, shrink, over time. I think the most critical factor will be good ballasting, and on any new lines I've seen it seems to be much deeper that it used to be, with deep shoulders: this provides the resistance to thermal expansion that is only released towards the rail ends at scarf joints. An interesting factor is shade. When track is laid in a cutting or passes a platform you can get differential expansion between the rails if one is shaded, leading to the possibility of buckling.

    A good resource is The Railway: British Track since 1804 by Andrew Dow.
  • Rail anchors are used in Britain but only in areas of bad creep.

  • A exemplary model of report writing.
  • Rail temperatures push 50 Celsius now in England. Well beyond pre-climate change norms.
  • One big difference with today's reports is that these are anonymised.
  • ArethosemyfeetArethosemyfeet Shipmate, Heaven Host
    Time to start shading the track with solar panels?
  • Network Rail are reassuring the public that railways are safe, but I expect they are concerned.

    The reports on these two derailments will be interesting (if technical) reading.
  • Network Rail are reassuring the public that railways are safe, but I expect they are concerned.

    The reports on these two derailments will be interesting (if technical) reading.
    Might not end up being technical, perhaps more about assurance, EWATs etc
  • EWATs????

    The reports aren't produced by Network Rail but by the Rail Accident Investigation Board.

    "The purpose of a Rail Accident Investigation Branch (RAIB) investigation is to improve railway safety by preventing future railway accidents or by mitigating their consequences. It is not the purpose of such an investigation to establish blame or liability. ... RAIB’s investigation (including its scope, methods, conclusions and recommendations) is independent of any inquest or fatal accident inquiry, and all other investigations, including those carried out by the safety authority, police or railway industry".
  • Yes, EWATs. They are discussed in the RAIB Carmont report, for instance.
  • EWATs????

    The reports aren't produced by Network Rail but by the Rail Accident Investigation Board.

    "The purpose of a Rail Accident Investigation Branch (RAIB) investigation is to improve railway safety by preventing future railway accidents or by mitigating their consequences. It is not the purpose of such an investigation to establish blame or liability. ... RAIB’s investigation (including its scope, methods, conclusions and recommendations) is independent of any inquest or fatal accident inquiry, and all other investigations, including those carried out by the safety authority, police or railway industry".

    Ahem! My bold. It's branch.
  • Indeed it is!
  • Network Rail are reassuring the public that railways are safe, but I expect they are concerned.

    The reports on these two derailments will be interesting (if technical) reading.
    Might not end up being technical, perhaps more about assurance, EWATs etc

    Indeed, but there must surely be a fair amount of technical and/or scientific detail.
  • Wesley JWesley J Circus Host
    edited August 15
    There've been experiments with painting the sides of tracks white, in countries like Italy, Switzerland, Germany and also the UK, see here or here.

    Italy's been doing this for a while, but I'm not quite sure of the results. Makes sense though.

    ETA: Also in the US.
  • A job to rival that of painting the Forth Bridge (if they still do paint it).

    A good idea, though, if it works. An excellent punishment for offenders, as an alternative to Prison?
  • Wesley JWesley J Circus Host
    edited August 15
    I was thinking the same! However, Union Pacific are using road-rail trucks, see pic in that article. Even the Germans use hoses, from what I've found. :smile:
  • Not quite the same thing, as it was the sleepers which got sloshed with white - but does anyone recall hearing about the GWR's "Whitewash Coach"?
  • SignallerSignaller Shipmate
    edited August 15
    Switch and crossing work has been painted white in the UK for some time to try and improve reliability in high temperatures. There wouldn't be a lot of point in doing it on plain line- it's more important to get the ballasting and stressing right. It may be that it is time to review the stress-free temperature, which is currently 27 degrees. I'm sure RAIB, my old employers, will have something to say on the subject. However, the stability of earthworks in extreme weather may also be a consideration in the Lewes derailment.
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